Plumbing Venting

[Redwood]

At the point where the washer drain connects to the shower and lav you should go up to 3" under many codes, it will help prevent the washer from coming up in the shower...

Also you should check the code requirements on sizing of the vent through the roof. I imagine in your area there is a requirement to upsize to prevent frost closure.

[drgto]

Thank you!!

Thank you Redwood for all of your help, advise and providing me with the knowledge I needed to move forward.

I did have one more question. On the attached reviewed isometric drawing I removed the aav and made it so the vent will be connected to the new roof vent. However, I also changed the 3" pipe to 2" pipe for the washer drain and where the shower connected...is this OKAY is 3" pipe required?


Dan

[Redwood]

Hi Redwood,

I went with the aav because there is no roof suitable to use nearby for venting since it has a downward pitch (inside ceiling follows pitch) plus there are windows nearby if I left the vent at the top. I wasn’t sure of any other options so in went with the aav. I know a neighbor is using one so I hope it is okay by code; will have to do some more homework.

(9pm) Brain storm...I was thinking that maybe I could run the vent pipe with the aav (with aav removed of course) into the wall and then along side the inside of the band joist and out the back and then make a right angle and connect to the new roof vent I plan to install. Can I run a vent pipe such a distance (15'+) and have various bends? I'll have to update the drawing so you can see what I am thinking.

I can't see what you are doing but the code does specify distances to windows and other openings. This product may be of interest if you are doing any new vents through the roof. http://www.kozykollar.com/

Toilets:
There is about 12” (2x10 +) from top of drain pipe to bottom of floor. I’ll have to look up an upward rolled wye to see if it will fit and how the vent will connect so I can understand this layout.

So a wye has more of a smooth curve vs a sanitary tee and is better to use for turns when a ‘y’ is needed.

Yes it offers direction to the flow that is needed on the horizontal plane where the sani-tee is used vertical because of the gravity assist and also allowing air flow back along the top.

On the horizontal run I’ll use the 3x2x3 wye or the other option you have suggested.

As for the cleanouts, can I use a wye with a treaded cap?

Absolutely

Someone told me that a vented ‘y’ should flow towards the trap so the air flows smoothly…and if I understand you correctly…the vented ‘y’ should be installed no different than if water was coming down and therefore be installed so the flow is towards the sewer or down stream. Reverse of what I was told. My logic told me that was wrong because the water running down the pipe may hit the ‘y’ and start trying to go up and therefore slow the flow…I’m so glad you corrected that because now I can count on my logic again.

I think I understand what you mean by an upward pitch for the wye…that way waste can not back-flow into that part of the vent/drain. Is that correct?

Yes

Thanks once again,
Dan

I think you've got it pretty well now.

[drgto]

Hi Redwood,

I went with the aav because there is no roof suitable to use nearby for venting since it has a downward pitch (inside ceiling follows pitch) plus there are windows nearby if I left the vent at the top. I wasn’t sure of any other options so in went with the aav. I know a neighbor is using one so I hope it is okay by code; will have to do some more homework.

(9pm) Brain storm...I was thinking that maybe I could run the vent pipe with the aav (with aav removed of course) into the wall and then along side the inside of the band joist and out the back and then make a right angle and connect to the new roof vent I plan to install. Can I run a vent pipe such a distance (15'+) and have various bends? I'll have to update the drawing so you can see what I am thinking.

Toilets:
There is about 12” (2x10 +) from top of drain pipe to bottom of floor. I’ll have to look up an upward rolled wye to see if it will fit and how the vent will connect so I can understand this layout.

So a wye has more of a smooth curve vs a sanitary tee and is better to use for turns when a ‘y’ is needed.

On the horizontal run I’ll use the 3x2x3 wye or the other option you have suggested.

As for the cleanouts, can I use a wye with a treaded cap?

Someone told me that a vented ‘y’ should flow towards the trap so the air flows smoothly…and if I understand you correctly…the vented ‘y’ should be installed no different than if water was coming down and therefore be installed so the flow is towards the sewer or down stream. Reverse of what I was told. My logic told me that was wrong because the water running down the pipe may hit the ‘y’ and start trying to go up and therefore slow the flow…I’m so glad you corrected that because now I can count on my logic again.

I think I understand what you mean by an upward pitch for the wye…that way waste can not back-flow into that part of the vent/drain. Is that correct?

Thanks once again,
Dan

[Redwood]

I missed your wet venting for the toilets by using the sink to the left…is that really necessary with the other dry vent in place? The reason I ask is because that is an existing bath with no access to add venting above.
As you drew it they were vented, all the toilets need venting.

What do you mean by studor vent? Are you referring to the new 1st floor roof vent I added? I could connect that to the existing vent stack if that is preferred.
Sorry studor is a brand of aav where you have it many not be allowed in many codes I don't know about your's through the roof would be my preference.

It’s hard to draw fittings on the isometric drawing…that is why I listed two of the toilet fittings in my text. Are they not the correct ones to use? I've listed them below again and added some more.
1. Toilet directly over 3" drain
...a. Combination WYE & 1/8 bend w/side inlet (part No 515 - pg 32)
side inlets in bends are susceptible to clogging and are flat, is it possible to lengthen the run slightly so a upward rolled wye can be used? How much space do you have on a vertical plane?
...b. Flush Closet Flange (part No 815 - pg 40)
The closet flange is pretty much immaterial but my preference is one with a stainless steel ring.
2. Toilet that branches off a bit
...a. Long sweep 1/4 bend w/side inlet (part No 311 - pg 20)
Again I'd find a way to avoid side inlet
...b. Offset Closet Flange Adjust (part no 820P - pg 41)
stainless steel ring preferred
3. Where 3" turns and 2" continues to kitchen - use 'Y' 3x3x2 something like part no 502 - pg 30 or Sanitary Tee part no 400 -pg 23
on the horizontal a 3X2X3 wye or a 3x3x3 reduced to 2 would be used
4. For cleanouts I was thinking of a two way clean out (part no 448 - pg 29)
probably not what you want to use but seeing placement of cleanouts on the drawing would be good

I did not understand what you said about the usage of sani-tees vs wye and 45’s or, combo’s.
Look back to the 1st page of the thread i put a drawing up that I missed putting up earlier showing a combo used in a horizontal to vertical transition and how it affects venting

I do understand that all vents and drains must maintain a ¼” per foot pitch down stream. And I believe I have a handle on the direction of fittings as well. For example, on a ‘y’ the bottom of the ‘y’ should be pointed towards the sewer line but if used for venting the bottom of the ‘y’ should be pointed to the air source. In either case, the goal is to have a smooth flow of waste water or air. Is that correct?
your wording lost me but the vents should be piped just like they were flowing water

Oh by the way, you have been such a great help and I sure hope I pass the 101 course. This has been a great learning experience.

You are doing pretty good as a student.

Now a key part of the vents and wet vents they should all enter the horizontal run on the wye pitched upward so they are draining into the line... I'll see if I can find a picture which demonstrates this and get back to you.

[drgto]

I missed your wet venting for the toilets by using the sink to the left…is that really necessary with the other dry vent in place? The reason I ask is because that is an existing bath with no access to add venting above.

What do you mean by studor vent? Are you referring to the new 1st floor roof vent I added? I could connect that to the existing vent stack if that is preferred.

It’s hard to draw fittings on the isometric drawing…that is why I listed two of the toilet fittings in my text. Are they not the correct ones to use? I've listed them below again and added some more.
1. Toilet directly over 3" drain
...a. Combination WYE & 1/8 bend w/side inlet (part No 515 - pg 32)
...b. Flush Closet Flange (part No 815 - pg 40)
2. Toilet that branches off a bit
...a. Long sweep 1/4 bend w/side inlet (part No 311 - pg 20)
...b. Offset Closet Flange Adjust (part no 820P - pg 41)
3. Where 3" turns and 2" continues to kitchen - use 'Y' 3x3x2 something like part no 502 - pg 30 or Sanitary Tee part no 400 -pg 23
4. For cleanouts I was thinking of a two way clean out (part no 448 - pg 29)

I did not understand what you said about the usage of sani-tees vs wye and 45’s or, combo’s.

I do understand that all vents and drains must maintain a ¼” per foot pitch down stream. And I believe I have a handle on the direction of fittings as well. For example, on a ‘y’ the bottom of the ‘y’ should be pointed towards the sewer line but if used for venting the bottom of the ‘y’ should be pointed to the air source. In either case, the goal is to have a smooth flow of waste water or air. Is that correct?

Oh by the way, you have been such a great help and I sure hope I pass the 101 course. This has been a great learning experience.

[Redwood]

Yes you have corrected many of the things.
You did loose a bathroom sink that was originally into the vent on the right side that I had used fro wet venting one of the toilets. ??
I'd like to see the studor vent go is there any way that could be tied into other vents?

Also the correct fittings are not shown on the drawing so I would have to assume the correct fittings would actually be used when physically installed.

Do you understand what I have said about the usage of sani-tees vs wye and 45's or, combo's?
All vents and drains must maintain a 1/4" per foot pitch and direction in fittings as well.

[drgto]

Revised - Isometric Drawing - V3

Hi Redwood,

Okay, I hope I have it right. I've revised the isometric drawing to hopefully provide the correct venting. Does this work?

If so, I was going to use the following PVC for each toilet from the Charlotte pipe catalog you had posted.
1. Toilet directly over 3" drain - Combination WYE & 1/8 bend w/side inlet (part No 515 - pg 32)
2. Toilet that branches off a bit - Long sweep 1/4 bend w/side inlet (part No 311 - pg 20)

Thanks
Dan

[Redwood]

Please excuse the bad drawing but a lot was lost in transitioning from pdf to something I could crudely draw on...

Something like this attached drawing...
Modify it to your house and application...

[drgto]

It wasn't the electrical inspector that told me about the service line requirements...it was the building inspector that told me that and the same person I would have to go to for plumbing. And the same person that held up my project for 5+ months because they wanted calculations on my engineered seal drawings that cost me big bucks and was just finding anything to delay my project without just cause....and in the end found nothing wrong....it was so frustrating because I may lose my home now because the project is 5+ months behind schedule and my cash flow is gone. It stinks that an inspector can cause such harm and get away with it. That’s why I’m on this forum to find plumbing answers since I don’t have the money to hire a good plumber to do the work. I just need to finish so I can rent my home when finished

[drgto]

I'm lost. I am having a hard time understanding how to change the bath sink drain to provide a wet vent for the shower based on my existing isometric drawing.

I also don't understand how to vent the new toilet.

As for not touching existing work, I have to change the ideal bend on the existing toilet to a 'T' to allow for new work or I can not attached the new work to the sewer at all. I can not go over or under the existing toilet cast but can tap into the side of the cast (as 2nd option) from the toilet to the sewer but to me that doesn't seem as clean as just install a 'T' in place of the ideal bend.

I've been looking and reading books and searching the web but it just is not clicking as to what I need to change on my current layout. I am just not understanding the changes I need to make.

Thanks

[Redwood]

I'd leave the existing work alone...
Its working unless they make you change it.
New stuff I'd do right!

This is a crude but great drawing showing a lav wet venting a toilet and tub by a guy that hangs out on another forum.



For what fittings look like go to this link:

http://charlottepipe.com/Documents/DimensionalCatalogs/Plastic_Pipe_Fittings_DC-DWV%28609%29.pdf

Sani-Tee is drawing #400 on page 23

A Combo is drawing #501 on page 30

A Wye is drawing #600 on page 33

The 45 El would actually be a street 45 or 1/8 street bend and is shown as drawing #323 on page 21

The drawing below shows sani-tee vs wye and 45 or, combo on a horizontal transition to vertical with respect to venting. Refer to my earlier post on the usages of sani-tees vs. wye and 45 or, combos on the horizontal and vertical connections.

[HayZee518]

The inspectors for electrical said that? Are they crazy? Take a 40 space panel, stick a 20 into each space and add them up 800amps???

[drgto]

Hi Redwood,

I’m in SE PA and am not sure of the code used and the inspectors are no help. When I was doing the electrical they told me I had to add up the breakers to determine the service line amps…that is the point I stopped relying on any of their advice; which was limited anyway.

I don’t understand where I should tie in the vent for the toilet based on your description. The original toilet is connected via a vertical ‘T’ and the new proposed toilet was going to be connected via a horizontal ‘T’ and then a 90 degree elbow. Should I replace the 90 degree elbow with a vertical ‘T’ and then vent from the back of the ‘T’ and leave the original toilet as is since it is under a grandfather code?

Is there some diagram/drawing you can point me to for the lave sink drain into the shower via a wye and 45 or a combo rolled up on an angle that will vent the shower…I guess I don’t understand the difference between a wye and a ‘Y’ or ‘T’

Thanks again,
Dan

[Redwood]

Okay,
The vent sounds like it is coming from the proper location but it doesn't have to be 4", the venting sizing would be covered by a DFU table in the code used in your area. Do you know what code is used where you are?

Where you tied in the vent for the toilet is not a proper location.
The vent should be between the toilet and the water running by it in the drain.

You can have the lav sink drain into the shower via a wye and 45 or a combo rolled up on an angle and it will wet vent the shower.

Note: in the drawing I put in how some of the drains come in on an angle that would depict a wye. straight then an angle on entering the drain would show a wye and a 45 el or, combo. you may want to include that in your revisions so the building department doesn't reject the plan thinking they are tee's.