One Doorbell Button with 4 Doorbells/Chimes

[1BadBoy]

well then go with the 100 va xfmr. it'll save you time and money getting one unit instead of five transformers. I doubt you'll burn it up!

Cool - thanks, HayZee518. I wasn't sure if it was too over-powered!

[HayZee518]

doorbell

well then go with the 100 va xfmr. it'll save you time and money getting one unit instead of five transformers. I doubt you'll burn it up!

[1BadBoy]

Nestor must have multiple transformers on his mind when you can do the same with one buck-boost transformer. see my accompaning diagram. it shows ONE transformer connected to five loads through two pushbuttons - a front and a rear.
if you still wish multiple transformers, follow Nestor's diagram for parallel wiring. just make sure the transformers you buy are identical with regard to impedance rating.

With everything written recently, I realize I'll probably still wire for doorbells and doorbell buttons even though I will use an intercom type front doorbell button. Mainly because I also have 2 back doors - one on our deck and one downstairs next to the basement that I want to have doorbell buttons. I'll probably call OnQ Legrand again about that because I don't want the same button for the back doors (which will seldom if ever be used). Maybe I'll still resort to doorbells for that, but not sure yet. I'm guessing there must be some interface for these too, so I'll have to see what OnQ says.

HayZee518, I did call Jefferson Electric to inquire about a buck-boost transformer for a doorbell system (www[dot]JeffersonElectric[dot]com). The smallest they have is 100va (item #416-1201-000). They used to have a 50va, but they no longer have that. This may be too big, but if we use the intercom, it may not even be necessary.

At this point, I've gotten a lot of good information on options - thanks, HayZee518 and Nestor!!! I'll still go ahead and wire as planned and see what can be accommodated later. I still like the phone idea, but don't want a monthly cellular bill unless I could run it through my VoIP system somehow. But right now, the Legrand OnQ system says they don't have a phone interface for their intercom system. I think our wiring will accommodate another type of intercom that may have a phone interface, so I don't believe we are locked in for any specific company's product, though we'd probably have to choose one that can use the CAT5 wiring we have in place. Again, thanks guys for all your help!

If I think of anything more, I'll be sure to ask !

[1BadBoy]

Well, someone from MTS Business Services did phone me back, and I guess he was a bit disappointed that I only wanted the name of the company that makes that phone based intercom system because he basically told me to f*** off. He did say, however, that they're common nowadays and that every local telephone utility would be offering something like that to the apartment blocks and seniors residences in your area.

So, if you simply phone up your local telephone utility and explain that you want to talk to someone in their "Business Services" department because you want to find out more about telephone based intercom systems, your local phone system should have someone on staff who's familiar with them, and would know if there's something similar available for high end homes.

Thanks, Nestor. Appreciate your willingness to check that out with MTS. I'll give a call to my local telephone company (which isn't as local as it used to be - Century 21 these days) and see what they tell me.

Tonight I thought of one other aspect. If we install a front doorbell tied into our intercom or phone, not sure how that might work for back door doorbell buttons (I have 2 locations). Just something I missed in my research.

Guess the good ole 18/5 wire is still good insurance if only for that!

[Nestor]

Well, someone from MTS Business Services did phone me back, and I guess he was a bit disappointed that I only wanted the name of the company that makes that phone based intercom system because he basically told me to f*** off. He did say, however, that they're common nowadays and that every local telephone utility would be offering something like that to the apartment blocks and seniors residences in your area.

So, if you simply phone up your local telephone utility and explain that you want to talk to someone in their "Business Services" department because you want to find out more about telephone based intercom systems, your local phone system should have someone on staff who's familiar with them, and would know if there's something similar available for high end homes.

[Nestor]

BadBoy:

I phoned MTS (Manitoba Telephone Systems) and the receptionist told me that the "business sales" representative that I needed to talk to was not available that the present time, but that she had my phone number and would let him know to get back to me on this issue when he had time.

I will try to find out who makes the phone based intercom system described in my post and will get back to you when I have any information on it.

Nestor

[1BadBoy]

You guys are busy . Sorry it's been a busy week with the holiday weekend and all. A little background for me. Before I posted any questions, I did a lot of Google searching on how folks wired up multiple doorbells (wasn't really thinking beyond a basic doorbell system at that time). However, I was not finding any one that did more than 2 with one exception - well actually 2. One guy just in passing said he had three doorbells on a single transformer, but no additional information, and his post was years old, so the thread was closed. One other guy said he built a home for his folks about 5 years back and had a single transformer with *5* doorbells, but one died within the last year. He stopped posting, so there was really no information about what he did, so these were both dead ends. And then I realized that there are probably a lot of really smart folks out there who could help guide me and I decided to post on a number of sites - this one included. So I really appreciate all the information!

Nestor, my sister has a telephone answering system on her apartment, so when someone rings her at the front door, she programmed it to ring her cell phone. So at home or not, she can answer and the person at her front door has no idea if she's home or not. It's intriguing for sure. I haven't checked into that option at all (hadn't even thought about it for a home space), but as I may have already mentioned, I've installed 2 jacks in each room (some have more like our office and my storage area). This affords me the option of putting phones in any location. We are, though, installing an intercom in all bedrooms including the garage, office, laundry and my mechanical room/shop. For that product, our low voltage contractor likes Legrand by OnQ. I had read about them before the contractor suggested them, so I was a little familiar, but after reading your post, I called the company to ask what options I would have if I added their front door unit. They said that when the button of their front door unit was pushed, it would "ring" all the internal intercom units, so wherever you are in the house, you are notified and can answer and talk to anyone through the intercom. However, they said that their product is not tied to any type of calling system. Not sure if it's possible to somehow integrate it into some other product, but this is something I hadn't thought of and had forgotten about, so we are adding the required electrical box at the front door to add the doorbell product by Legrand. As Nestor stated, it would be nice to tie it into a phone calling solution, but that's not possible with this product. We could, however, find another product that may still provide this functionality by another vendor, but that vendor would have to be able to take advantage of the CAT5 cabling we have run to each room if we wanted to go another route.

Nestor, are you by chance familiar with any intercom systems for homes that would provide the phone integration like you are referring? I'd like to read up on them if you have a product or company in mind.

Thanks guys for all the help, advice and guidance!

[Nestor]

I'm just thinking that if it were my house, I'd opt for an intercom system over a doorbell. In most houses a door bell is all you need. But if BadBoy wants to substantially change his existing doorbell system as he's been talking about, I think it would be better to do away with the door bell entirely and use the telephone system to alert him of both incoming phone calls and visitors to his house. That's relatively easy to do and it makes it possible for him to "answer the door" bell even when he's not home, and that's an advantage in my books because we have all been inconvenienced having to stay home all day because the furniture delivery men can't narrow it down any better than between 8:00 AM and 5:30 PM. If you can talk to the furniture delivery guys when they get to your house and tell them where to find the key and where to put the couch, life on days like that would be so much easier.

And, if someone presses your door bell button to see if you're home, they're going to think you are if there's a response. It's only when there's no response to the door bell button that they know you're not home, so a telephone based intercom system provides some degree of home security tossed in free of charge.

[HayZee518]

dorrbell

yah that makes sense. thanks for the input. I was going to use X10 technology here at my house and run everything off my computer but during a power outage, nothing would work. even with a ups you are going to have only about 6 hours of working time.

[Nestor]

Well, that's OK. There's nothing wrong with getting multiple opinions.

And, it's seldom that you don't change your plan somewhat during the planning stages anyway. After all, that's when you're actively seeking out new products and ideas to incorporate into your design.

So I realize there isn't anything carved in stone here yet.

Another thing I was going to mention but forgot was that about 3 years ago I was thinking of adding an intercom system to my building as we don't have one. Manitoba Telephone Systems is now offering a wireless intercom for apartment blocks that works on cell phone technology that BadBoy might be interested in using. Essentially, this intercom system is a cell phone combined with a computer. You program the computer to dial the tenant's home phone number when his posted intercom number is punched in. The intercom simply phones the tenant's apartment, and so you don't need to wire the building with intercom wiring (or door bell wiring). The only difference is that the phone rings instead of the door chime, but you can program the intercom system to have a different ring tone than the regular ring tone so the tenant knows which is a regular phone call and when it's someone at the apartment block entrance. Also, if there's no answer at the tenant's home phone after X number of rings, the intercom then hangs up and dials a second phone number, like a work phone number or a cell phone number. That way, if the tenant isn't home he knows that someone is at his apartment wanting to talk to him and he can either make arrangements to meet that person later or tell them he's not interested in what they're selling anyway.

I'm thinking that instead of having multiple door chimes in his house, BadBoy might consider a simple intercom system that uses cell phone technology to ring his home phone number, and simply have a phone jack in almost every room of the house (which he's probably thinking about doing anyway). And, there are multiple advantages to having an intercom system that uses the telephone system rather than door chimes. If there's no response by X number of rings on the home phone, the intercom will automatically dial another phone number, like Bad Boy's cell phone. That way if you've got an appliance repairman coming to fix a washer on a certain day, you don't have to wait at home to let them in. You can just answer the phone and tell him the door key is taped to the underside of the mail box, or whatever. If it's UPS at the door with a parcel, you can tell them over the phone to just leave it behind the central air conditioner where no one else will see it, and you don't have to be waiting at home all day for the delivery. And, of course, a burglar will always ring the doorbell of any house he's about to break into. The burglar is testing to see if there's anyone home or a large dog living in the house. If he hears nothing, he knows the chances are better than 50/50 the coast is clear. If someone comes to the door, then he tries to sell them a magazine subscription or convince them to commit their lives to Jehovah. BUT, if he just gets someone responding "Hello" over the intercom, he doesn't know if that person is inside the house or talking to him from work downtown or from his cell phone in his car. In a case like that, the burglar is more inclined to play it safe and just move on to a house with a conventional door bell that's going to give him the information about the house he wants.

I'm just thinking that if they have intercoms that use cell phone technology for apartment blocks now, then there's a very good chance that someone has a similar thing for high end homes, and that's something BadBoy might want to use INSTEAD of multiple door chimes. After all, a door chime is 1950's technology and is extremely limited in what it can do. An intercom that uses telephone technology allows you to "answer your door" regardless of where you are, and that allows you to do things you otherwise couldn't do, like tell someone who rings your door bell that you're running late but should be home in 10 minutes, so to just wait there for you. Or, you can answer your door bell and tell someone that you're not home even though you are, and they'll walk away believing you really aren't home. Let's face it; door bell technology hasn't changed since the 1950's but telephone technology certainly has. Why stick with 1950's technology if you can just as easily and economically have a system that will allow you to answer your door from anywhere in your local calling area?

[HayZee518]

doorbell

Nestor, this isn't the only forum Bad Boy's been looking into. He also has multiple questions in DIY Chat, so nothing in here [or there] is really concrete yet. I'll leave the choice up to him. I did look into the Nutone site and they have 10va transformers with 120 volt primaries for about $12 a piece. They also seem to want to push wireless chime units.

[Nestor]

BadBoy:

Sure, if you can simplify your wiring and save some money by using a single buck-boost transformer rather than multiple regular 40 VA transformers, that would be the way I'd go.

Probably the way I'd check into them is to e-mail Jefferson Electric tech support, tell them what you're wanting to do, and confirm with them that one of their buck-boost transformers will fit the bill.

But, like I say, I have absolutely no experience with buck-boost transformers and so I really can't advise you one way or the other about them*. If they'll do what you want, the only question now would be the cost.

*Note:
although I'm not one to let my not knowing anything about a subject stand in the way of my speaking authoritatively to others about it; often at considerable length

[HayZee518]

buck-boost

typically a buck-boost transformer is used to increase or decrease line voltage by electrically adding or subtracting voltage from the applied voltage. say if you had a 208 circuit that you had to run at 240 volts absolutely, then a buck-boost would be wired into the circuit to provide that extra 32 volts.
Jefferson Electric has buck-boost transformers available online, and I'm sure electrical suppliers have them too!
Nestor - do your homework - go find a buck-boost and read about it.
I've used a buck-boost setup where I had a three phase soda can crusher from Germany and needed to reduce the line voltage of 240 to 208. Two such transformers were needed.
If you look on their chart, a .050kva transformer will satisfy the 50 va requirement. KVA means Kilo Volt Amperes or One thousand volt amps. if you move the decimal point three places to the right, you'll get 50va. its just like dividing by one thousand.

[1BadBoy]

I've never heard of a "buck boost" transformer so I can hardly recommend that Bad Boy use one. I know multiple identical transformers wired in parallel will work, so that's what I was suggesting. If one "buck boost" transformer will replace several lower power transformers, that'd be the way to go. I just don't want to tell the guy to use something that I've never used and have no experience with.

Hi Nestor. I've never heard of a "Buck-Boost" transformer either. And Google hasn't helped much at this point. I've found a lot of information regarding Buck Boost transformers, but nothing in regards to using one for a doorbell.

HayZee518: in all fairness to Nestor, I believe he was just answering my question about how one connects transformers in parallel. With that said, I'm definitely interested in learning more about using a Buck Boost transformer for my doorbell system if it will allow me to use a single transformer. Do you have any more information or specific Buck Boost transformers that could be used in my scenario? Based on the va requirements of one doorbell I saw at Home Depot, it was rated as 10va I believe. If I had 4 of those, I'm guessing I'd need a 40va Buck Boost transformer. How can I locate one of these?

[1BadBoy]

ok, a transformer is a coil. matter of fact two coils wound right on top of the other. they are wound around an iron core. the coils have resistance, but because of an iron core they now also have impedance. impedance is the opposition to flow at a given frequency. in this case 60 Hertz or 60 cycles. Loudspeakers have a coil around a magnet which is iron or ceramic or incalloy. speakers have impedance also, like resistance, measured in ohms. if the impedance isn't perfectly balanced then the resulting total impedance presents a load on the line which may in time overheat and draw excessive current. eventually it will burn out. a buck-boost eliminates this problem. it too has impedance but it is not in parallel with any other device. another thing, in a transformer there is a 180 degree phase shift from the input voltage. for a parallel connection like nestor stated, the input winding must be wound in the same direction as all the others and there's no way to tell if they are - the secondaries of all the other transformers may be 180 degrees out of synch with each other.

Electronics is not my forte, but I think I grasp what you are saying:

If I installed transformers that didn't match (e.g. different output, manufacturers, models, etc.), that could cause problems between the disparate transformers potentially causing them to overheat (with the potential for fire too) and/or wear out prematurely.

However, if I installed identical transformers (e.g. same output, manufacturer, model, etc.), the transformers theoretically should be in sync. And in that scenario, they should work without the potential for the issues stated above, correct?

I understand about manufacturing tolerances to know that the transformers will never *exactly* match, but they should be so close as to not cause the issues described with unmatched transformers - at least I *think* that would be the case.

Am I correct in this thinking?