No neutral in subpanel

[Tom Nicelley]

I was planning to add a new 20amp circuit in my old house. The old service panel (pushmatic) is filled up, but there is an open slot in the sub-panel (bryant). My problem is that I was expecting to find some type of neutral bus bar, but there isn't one. There is a ground bus bar. I'm confused in that any books and diagrams that I have show both (seperate) ground and neutral bus bars. Let me add that all of the circuits on the subpanel are 220. Is there any way to add this 115v circuit or is this subpanel for 220 only?

Thanks

[volts]

Tom: There's only one ground/neutral bus bar in any panel I have ever seen. There is no need for two of such. At the panel, neutral and ground become one of the same. For 120V, invest in a single breaker, i.e., one which will feed only from one side of the hot bus and has a single terminal for connection. The others, the 220v CBs in that panel, are duals which tie across each hot side.

[kactuskid]

You should install another sub panel for 120 volt circiuts instead. This way you can add more cicuits later. Yes, a sub panel for 120 volt circuits should have a neutral and a ground. But, they must remain separate in a sub panel.

Volts, the ground and neutral are ONLY joined in the main electrical panel that power feeds directly from the meter. Here's a link that you can read that explains why they must be separate in a sub panel, it is a safety issue. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...ith/panels.htm

[HayZee518]

What type of cable is feeding the sub panel? How many conductors?

[Tom Nicelley]

I'm not sure of the gauge, but there are 2 black wires and a braided copper ground wire. The 2 black wires both-I'm not sure of the terminology-attach to the terminals on each side that feed the breakers.
I would estimate that this added subpanel is from the 70's (but since I still live in the 80's, it could actually be from the 60's).
Are you guys saying DON'T attach my (on the new circuit) neutral wire to the grounding bus?, or just that it's not the best way?

[kactuskid]

I'm saying don't. Did you read the link up above? It explains in detail why not to.

[HayZee518]

A sub panel is normally fed with a four wire cable. What you are telling me is that the panel is NOW being supplied with an SEU type service cable. Sub panels use an additional ground bus with the neutral isolated above ground.
So what you have is just as you described - a 220 feed without a neutral, per se.

[volts]

quote:Originally posted by kactuskid

You should install another sub panel for 120 volt circiuts instead. This way you can add more cicuits later. Yes, a sub panel for 120 volt circuits should have a neutral and a ground. But, they must remain separate in a sub panel.

Volts, the ground and neutral are ONLY joined in the main electrical panel that power feeds directly from the meter. Here's a link that you can read that explains why they must be separate in a sub panel, it is a safety issue. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...ith/panels.htm

[volts]

kactuskid: What gave you the impression that I recommended such a ground/neutral (common)connection in a SUBPANEL? I merely described that a panel,when it has a ground block,the neutral also terminates there, albeit at the main panel.

[kactuskid]

Volts, you said this
" There's only one ground/neutral bus bar in any panel I have ever seen. There is no need for two of such. At the panel, neutral and ground become one of the same."

The poster was talking about a sub panel, never even mentioned a main panel. Notice you said "ANY PANEL" . You definatly gave the wrong advise, and not only wrong but dangerous advise. This isn't the first time either. Please don't try to insult my intelligence by trying to backpeddle now, you'd be better off learning a bit more about electrical than offering poor advice.

[volts]

quote:Originally posted by kactuskid

Volts, you said this
" There's only one ground/neutral bus bar in any panel I have ever seen. There is no need for two of such. At the panel, neutral and ground become one of the same."

The poster was talking about a sub panel, never even mentioned a main panel. Notice you said "ANY PANEL" . You definatly gave the wrong advise, and not only wrong but dangerous advise. This isn't the first time either. Please don't try to insult my intelligence by trying to backpeddle now, you'd be better off learning a bit more about electrical than offering poor advice.

[volts]

kactuskid: How is the atmosphere up there on your high horse? What I said was ANY PANEL I HAVE EVER SEEN. I merely answered a straight question and described a panel. I did not recommend connecting neutral and ground together in a subpanel. Assumedly, the above subpanel was wired correctly, i. e., not using the ground bus. Read the text. That's my advice (not advise).

[Tom Nicelley]

You guys be nice. But volts, I did (mistakenly) assume that you were telling me to attach the neutral to the ground bus, since it sounds like you were saying that they are one and the same.