Load Centers and brand-name safety records

[TBurns]

In my 30 year old home I have a 125 Amp FPE load center that, I found out by searching the internet, has probably never provided overload protection (see http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm ) I was already thinking of replacing it because my lights flicker and the TV picture shrinks any time the heater or a/c kicks on. The only reason I was searching the web was to find the typical requirements of a hot tub. Am I glad I did. 2 years ago, I had a compressor fire on my AC. In retrospect, I wonder if the FRE breakers not tripping had anything to do with my problems? Oh well, that is water under the bridge. For my current decision, I can get Square D QO or Homeline products locally as well as Eaton Cutler-Hammer.

The Eaton Cutler-Hammer boxes seem to be a particularly good value because they include all the breakers as well as the box. However, the QO seems to be considered the Mercedes Benz of boxes.

I do not want to sacrifice quality for price, but there is a substantial difference in price. If the other brands provide comparable quality, I might be inclined to consider them. The article cited above really scared me. I have done several web searches on Cutler-hammer, GE and Siemens, but seem to only find stuff regarding FPE problems. If these other brands are o.k., I'm thinking of going with one of them.

Anyone care to disuade me? As an example of the price differences:

QO 200 Amp 20 spaces/40 circuits $240 (includes main breaker)
QO 200 Amp 40/40 $270 (includes main breaker)
Cutler Hammer CH valuepack 32/32 $180 (includes all breakers)
Cutler Hammer BR valuepack 40/40 $130 (includes all breakers)

Does anyone know what the CH and BR stand for in the Cutler-Hammer products?

I intend to hire a licensed electrician and will probably defer to his advice, but was wondering what your experince says? Thanks for any insight.

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tburns@nospamvalornet.com please remove "nospam" to email me.
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[HayZee518]

FPE has proved itself over and over of being a not so quality piece of equipment. Yet the UL or other subsideries haven't removed it from the market. Breakers fall out of the panelboxes when the coverplate is removed. Breakers that were meant to trip didn't and caused a fire, Commercial equipment burned out between phases! The list goes on and on...
Cutler Hammer used to be the Cadillac of panels. Square "D" with their pushmatic breakers takes a close second. General Electric has always been my choice for disconnects, breaker panels, controllers and control relays with Allen BRadley a very close second.
For residential - Crouse Hinds is OK, but they were good for explosion proof products - how they got into distribution I have no idea. Westinghouse, Challenger - got into residential I guess because of an open market.
Arrow-Hart used to be up there along with GE and other well known products.
I will always put my buck down towards GE.

[HayZee518]

CH means cutler hammer - BR stands for Bryant

[HayZee518]

If your hot tub will be outside might I suggest that you use a poly jacketed armored cable with suitable sealtite fittings on both ends. In most cases I've seen 50 amp is the usual draw, so a 60 amp breaker will do nicely. GFI or non GFI your choice if the equipment is factory supplied with GFCI breakers.

[kactuskid]

Here are some links to help you make up your mind. I prefer the Square D to any of them, but the C-H would be my next choice. Make sure that whichever panel you purchase, that new breakers are easily available. I personnaly don't care for GE, the breakers are sometimes hard to find. Hope this helps:

http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002393.html

http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003027.html

http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001083.html

[Kidd6488]

I have to agree with HayZee, as we recently installed a GE PowerMark Gold box. I can't remember the price, but it was considerably lower than the QO box. We especially liked it because it was about the only other brand to have a copper bus, which is good, as other brands have been reported to have their breakers welded to the Aluminum bus.

~Jonathon Reinhart

[HayZee518]

Rah Rah! Thanks John!

[Kidd6488]

Our contractor installed our sub-panel for our addition, and chose a Square D - QO panel. I looked at the breakers, and am I correct that you can properly connect two wires to one breaker? This would be convenient because I want to run one wire up to the attic and one over through the wall from the same circuit?

I like the QO, but man, are they expensive or what?!

Our geothermal furnace has emergency resistance heat, and it uses two QO-B I think they are; bolt-on breakers. They are nice, too.

~Jonathon Reinhart

[HayZee518]

John the breakers are designed to accept ONE wire however as you know the homeowner will figure out a way of defeating that purpose. Most commonly - splice a short length of 12 ga onto the two circuits and screw this wire into the breaker terminal.
Many breakers out in the field will fit a GE panel. GE panels have either a solid bus stab or a V notched stab. Some breakers have a metal clip that acts as a rejection clip on solid stabs but will fit a V notched stab. Westinghouse, Challanger, Arrow-hart, Murray, GE, the newer Cutler-Hammer will fit a GE panel.

[kactuskid]

MOST BREAKERS WILL NOT ACCEPT TWO CONDUCTORS PER TERMINAL

BREAKERS..that will accept 2 wires per terminal are embossed with symbols to indicate this...

SQUARE "D" Homline and QO, up through 30amps ,both single and 2 pole,will accept two wires.
Wire sizes accepted..if just a single wire ...#14 thru #8

If terminating two wires....#14 thru #10
Homeline 'TWIN' ...NO..will not accept two wires

#30amp is the cutoff point,,as 40 amp breakers do not accept two wires in a single terminal ..FYI: 40amp is listed at #8 thru #2 AWG conductors.

[palmbayway]

Does anyone have an opinion about the Siemens Indoor Load Center circuit breaker panel? That is what the electrical contractor just installed this morning to replace my Pacific Federal circuit breaker panel.

[HayZee518]

Sieman's Allis used to just make control relays and then they got into the distribution line. I'm glad they did. They have the quality with many, many years of solid construction and workmanship. You'll be glad you made this your choice.

[Rewired]

Ahh well, I figure I should stick my 2 cents in here as well..
I haven't really heard of many problems with FPE panels up here IN CANADA.. Perhaps they are made different, or to some different spec of some kind. I will admit some of the older breakers that were made about 20 to 30 years ago were very SLOW to trip, to the point that during a momentary short circuit you could get a good arc, but it TRIPPED I really never seen or heard of one not tripping.. The newer stuff from FPE HAS been re-designed to make them quicker to trip, and they seem to actually do what they say. This could be because FPE is now made under a new name up here "Schneider Electric" who ALSO make SQUARE - D! Believe it or not, if you buy a FPE panel pack for your house now, it will have a Square -D main breaker in it.. An FPE disconnect switch, are now identical to Square - D switches of the same rating! Bizarre ain't it

As for some of FPE's Commercial equipment failing or burning out between phases, I WILL agree that there have been problems with some of their molded case breakers, ONLY because I have found out they are NOT "FPE"!
Some of their older stuff used General electric molded case breakers. (Example: a "TED" style General electric breaker is the same as an older "CED" style witrh a "FPE" sticker on it!)
The newer FPE molded case breakers ARE made by Cutler Hammer, and yes, I have witnessed a potential for a fire when a short in a 22A feeder line FAILED to trip the breaker! At the same jobsite we also had problems with simply opening a breaker to a feeder and not being able to re-close it.. Not a safety issue really, but that says a lot about quality. That or its the new thing from Cutler Hammer:.. The "ONE TIME ONLY BREAKER"!


Sorry guys, I just had to voice my thoughts!

A.D