Overhead lighting in 2-story house

[Indiana1]

I have an old farm house and it is 2-story. Last night all the downstairs overhead lights(kitchen,dining,living room, etc) flickered and went out. I have no power to them. All the outlets in the affected rooms are working fine. Nothing else seems to be having issues, just the cieling lights downstairs. I have checked all the breakers and they are all on and seem to be working. I am guessing that they split from one circuit and branched out to all the lights. My real problem is that I don't have a way(that I can see) to access the run.

All the wires come up from the basement through a chase in the center of the house that contains an unused chimney. Where should I look for a junction? Would it be be something that is in the chase or would be more likely be buried under some part of the ceiling? I haven't dug real deep into it yet so any advice would be appreciated.

[Indiana1]

I think I will purchase a voltage detector and check all the wires going into the chase tomorrow for starters. I am hoping I can locate a junctionbox(could I get that lucky)

I am wondering....

Can I connect to the ground in the breakerbox with a LONG wire and use a voltmeter to test the hot and neutral in each room. Am I doing that the hard way?

[HayZee518]

what you have is a real nightmare to an electrician. but one consolation - all the outlets work! the lighting could go into the chase to a junction box and split from there to different circuits. I would look for a junction box - first. Measure the hots to ground off all branches. it would all be black-white -
you might just find an open neutral under a wirenut or an open hot under a wirenut.

[Snoonyb]

Any voltage tic will only identify the "presence" of voltage, but will not necessarily identify a "hot" conductor.
In the same section that you find the tic, will be a short, narrow blade screwdriver which has a metallic button on the top of the handle and a neon indicator in the handle.
Touch the screwdriver tip to a bare wire or device screw, and at the same time, touch the metallic button. If the neon indicator lites, the conductor is hot.

[Indiana1]

Any voltage tic will only identify the "presence" of voltage, but will not necessarily identify a "hot" conductor.
In the same section that you find the tic, will be a short, narrow blade screwdriver which has a metallic button on the top of the handle and a neon indicator in the handle.
Touch the screwdriver tip to a bare wire or device screw, and at the same time, touch the metallic button. If the neon indicator lites, the conductor is hot.

Well the detector did just that detect the presence, which they all had. So I would guess that at least one leg is still connected.
I was able to ID the circuit and it does run up with the rest of the wires into a small 4x6 chase that goes from the basement all the way to the attic. As it is 105deg here today, I am not in a hurry to clinb into the attic to see fi the curcuit goes all the way up there and then back down or not. I know I have a few junctions in the attic and I am hoping the one for this is up there. I do not see any other way to get to the wires otherwise. I tested them with a voltmeter yesterday and there was no power.

I pray for a junction in the attic that is broken.....

[Indiana1]

Well, I went into the attic to find the circuit....


First I turned off all the circuits except for the one I am working with. Then I found a function that responded to the detector. Then I shut off the circuit and it stopped responding. The problem is that I know it could just be a branch that does on up the attic. I am guessing that it is not, because it comes out of the chase into the attic. It then goes into some, for lack of a better term, "native wiring" It is not romex(that is the plasic coated wire right?) It is two seperate wires that run around the attic and through porcelain gromets. The wires look like they are covered in a cloth-like material.(I could provide pictures it that would help.) Anyways, this is giving me that "oh crap" feeling that I am goind to have to make some new runs.
Anyone have advice at this stage?

Thanks!

[Snoonyb]

The cloth covered wire is part of a knob and tube system, which in your case, was an eventuality.
There are a couple of ways to check for the hot conductor in this system.
1) Is the tester I recommended.
2) Is the method you first suggested, dragging a separate conductor, one end connected to an established ground.
You can use a vom until you are blue in the face, and may never get a reading.
You'll only achieve your goal by identifying where the conductors are and which are hot where.
Switched circuits can be hot in in two places, the light/fixture box and the switch box.
There may also be an established neutral or not, as well.

[HayZee518]

the romex cable you found will splice into the knob and tube wires. for your sake of ease later on, take some white tape and mark the neutral wherever there is a splice along the knob and tube, as you are checking. where knob and tube make parallel runs they are almost on knobs within one joist space. now what could happen with knob and tube. at the splices which are generally just wound around the main line and soldered and taped with friction tape, they tend to loosen up causing problems. the solder they used way back when wasn't of great quality nor was the flux (oxalic acid) so it tends to be of a high resistance and doesn't actually bond anything. attic rats have an affinity for the rubber that covered the wires. splices were genrally made between two porcelain knobs spaced close together. old ceiling boxes made of cast iron used loom (a jute fiber covering) where the cast iron clamps were. knob n tube wiring in walls used the loom on the wires that went to outlet boxes were not clamped in the boxes, just laid inside the knockouts. be careful of the old outlets - a lot of time they would just fall apart in your hands and the termination screws and wires - the wires were wound in the opposite direction the screws would tighten.

[Indiana1]

Any voltage tic will only identify the "presence" of voltage, but will not necessarily identify a "hot" conductor.
In the same section that you find the tic, will be a short, narrow blade screwdriver which has a metallic button on the top of the handle and a neon indicator in the handle.
Touch the screwdriver tip to a bare wire or device screw, and at the same time, touch the metallic button. If the neon indicator lites, the conductor is hot.

Can you throw me a link from Lowes,HomeDepot or the like of what your talking about. The only thing I see that resembles what you talking about are for 12v auto.

[Snoonyb]

Nope. Because Its not shown on either. However, I will provide the information tomorrow.
Here is a similar, yet more advanced, product bu IDEAL;

http://www.idealindustries.com/tm/ElectricalTesters.nsf/ElectricalTesters?OpenFrameSet

Item ID: 61-050
Name: Vol-Test™ Pocket Tester
Features: Single probe checks voltage from 12V to 440V AC
Tests for continuity, polarity and voltage
Convenient screwdriver tip
Automatic safety feature switches between voltage and continuity
5-year warranty

The product I'm speaking of is a simple, short ( 2.5-3") screwdriver with a yellow handle and a red tip where the button is, and the screwdriver shaft has a plastic sleeve/insulator covering all but the tip.

Its only function is to test for voltage.

[HayZee518]

you could use a common neon tester too - just hold one prod in your fingers and touch the other prod to a bare wire. make sure you are not grounded and one side of the neon tube will slightly lite indicating the hot or live circuit. the screwdriver detector is basically the same thing.

[Snoonyb]

The version that HD carries is by Commercial Electric and the number is HST 400.
The version of which I am speaking, is by GB insturments, carried locally by ACE, TRUE Value's, as well as independent HDW vendors, and is a GST 201.

Here is the link;http://shopping.msn.com/Specs/shp/?itemId=480219296,
and Its 6" long.