I messed up real bad. :(

[Speedy Petey]

Agree, it was common practice for some. It just didn't become an official code till NEC '99.
Unfortunately tape is not legal to fulfill this code requirement.

For anyone interested, here is the code section and Handbook commentary in blue:

200.7(C)(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

Previous editions of the Code permitted switch loops using a white insulated conductor to supply the switch but not as the return conductor to supply the lighting outlet. Prior to the 1999 NEC, re-identification of this particular ungrounded conductor was not required. However, many electronic automation devices requiring a grounded conductor are now available for installation into switch outlets. Therefore, re-identification of all ungrounded conductors that are white or otherwise identified by one of the methods permitted for grounded conductors is now required at every termination point to avoid confusion and improper wiring at the time a switching device is installed or replaced. The required re-identification must be effective, permanent, and suitable for the environment, to clearly identify the insulated conductor as an ungrounded conductor.

[HayZee518]

I apprenticed in Buffalo NY under a master elect. in 1965. We always taped a white in a switch loop - end of story.

[Speedy Petey]

I don't have access to my '96 right now.

I said "newer", meaning less than 20 years old. The re-marking the white wire in a switch loop is a relatively new requirement. 200.7(C)(2)

It is very common to see homes built in the 50's-80's with black and white switch loops. Black and white on a switch and a black connected to a white at the fixture box.

That was my point about the inaccuracy of a "black never connected to a white".

[HayZee518]

New code? I have a copy of the 1996 code book right in front of me. Article 200-7, exceptions 1 & 2 deal with the white or natural gray wire. Go read exception #2.

[Speedy Petey]

There are no differences. I simply tried to clear up some erroneous information and was insulted for doing so.


Your logic about making different cables for switch loops and 3-ways is the logic behind the newer code to re-mark the white in such applications.

[HayZee518]

speedy & leo. this forum is not for you guys to straighten out your differences, take that up somewhere else.
The poster had a problem with his wiring. He made a boo-boo while replacing a light - let's stick to that! In answer to one of you guys statements, connecting a hot to a neutral will always trip a breaker and NOT always fry the circuit depending on the breaker rating and cycle time to trip. A white is used in switch loops for three ways and single pole switches. They should make 12 and 14/2 with two blacks for switch loops also a three wire just for switch and traveler lines. In some cases the white in a three way is used for carrying the neutral to the load or is hot depending on switch position.

[Speedy Petey]

The response I made was made to help the guy fix his electrical circuit problem. Your response is to find erroneously little bits of exceptions to the rule... get a life man.

Pardon me? Who the hell are you?
How about you don't give advice you are NOT qualified to give. I was trying to correct the erroneous advice you gave so no one else would read it and make a mistake because of it.
If you look back you'll see I am not the only one questioning you either.

You stick to your trade, I'll stick to mine!

[leodlion]

Actually I did not mix terms. Grounded, and grounding, are two very different things.

Also, you sometimes do connect a black wire to a white wire. Although newer codes require re-marking of the white wire to a "hot" color.
In an older installation it is very common to see a white connected to a black.
This is done in switch loops.

The response I made was made to help the guy fix his electrical circuit problem. Your response is to find erroneously little bits of exceptions to the rule... get a life man.

[Speedy Petey]

Actually I did not mix terms. Grounded, and grounding, are two very different things.

Also, you sometimes do connect a black wire to a white wire. Although newer codes require re-marking of the white wire to a "hot" color.
In an older installation it is very common to see a white connected to a black.
This is done in switch loops.

[leodlion]

...
White is typically a grounded conductor (neutral), is sometimes hot (as in a switch loop), and is NEVER a grounding conductor (ground wire).

Bare or green are ALWAYS a ground.

This is what happens when a non-trade person tries to explain something technical. The wrong information/terms is/are given and this perpetuates an incorrect situation, even though folks think it is correct.

Yes, I use the wrong terminology in using 'ground' for white wire instead of neutral. If you read your post, you also mix the two terms.

The point I wanted to make is to never connect the black to the white wire. He had a short circuit which blew his circuit breaker and probably fried some wires. This may be due to the black to white connection.

[HayZee518]

code states that a neutral shall be a contnuous white or gray along its entire path. a grounding condutor shall be a bare, green or green with a yellow tracer along its entire length. It doesn't hafta be copper as in aluminum thw or thhn or the wrapped bare aluminum in an SEU type service entrance conductor or SER (round) service entrance conducctor.

[Speedy Petey]

Now I have a question about this response from Leodlion, when is ever a white wire a ground wire? I have always been taught and have always seen ground as a Green wire and a White wire as a Neutral.

Good catch.

Basically, anything other than white, gray, green or bare, is some form of hot wire (typically black, red or blue). Whether it is switched or constant. This is assuming small wire for general circuits. A ground to a pipe or rod may be any color.

White is typically a grounded conductor (neutral), is sometimes hot (as in a switch loop), and is NEVER a grounding conductor (ground wire).

Bare or green are ALWAYS a ground.


This is what happens when a non-trade person tries to explain something technical. The wrong information/terms is/are given and this perpetuates an incorrect situation, even though folks think it is correct.

[KSever]

Dealing with meters and test equipment, I worked for Western Mass Elecctric Company for 20 years. Their policy for circuit testing is 1) test on a known live circuit, then 2) test your problem circuit and 3) retest on a live circuit.

Very Good advise Hayzee and I have always done this one as you stated above.

Now I have a question about this response from Leodlion, when is ever a white wire a ground wire? I have always been taught and have always seen ground as a Green wire and a White wire as a Neutral.

Basically, a black wire (hot) or red wire is never, never, connected directly into a white (ground) wire. I suggest you get a how-to-wire book at your local hardware store. Reading it will payoff in the long run.

[HayZee518]

Dealing with meters and test equipment, I worked for Western Mass Elecctric Company for 20 years. Their policy for circuit testing is 1) test on a known live circuit, then 2) test your problem circuit and 3) retest on a live circuit.

[leodlion]

...
I guess when the caps are not screwed on, as a safety precaution the breakers shut off? What do these plastic caps do?

I'll go to home depot and get the test light screw driver thing mentioned by Hayzee ... is that the same as a circuit tester mentioned by Leodlion?

I will try to connect my sconce tonight. First thing I will do is turn off the breaker for that area. The wires coming out of the wall are white, green and I believe one was black. And I think my sconce has more wires then that so this will be interesting. I have a feeling I will be back on tonight with more questions HAHA. Thanks so much though. I really appreciate the help guys.

The plastic cap just holds the wires together and being plastic (non-conductor) acts as insulator.

The test light screw driver is a simple way of testing if the wire is live. The circuit tester does that and more. The circuit testing can measure the voltage, amps, and resistance. And it can be use for direct current like testing batteries. In the long run, you are better off with a circuit tester. They are not expensive, maybe $30 for a good one at the hw store.

Good luck and be safe. Wear rubber shoes. Test before you touch.