Upping service and adding subpanel

[DKAudio]

Ok Tom, I got another electrical job from a neighbor. Right now they have a 60A fuse box, the lines from the electric company look pretty small too. We are hoping they will handle 100A service. They are not pulling a permit or having it inspected even though I recommended it. Their electric meter is actually in the basement right next to the panel. Their weathercap and conduit are mounted under the soffit (does not go through the attic). It has a 90* bend and then runs down the exterior wall and into the basement.

This is what I am planning on doing.

Install new lines 4 AWG CU and weathercap to the line side of the meter and from the load side to the panel.

Replace their old 60A fuse box with a 100A breaker panel.

I will bond their water meter but probably won't drive a ground rod.

Install a 60A breaker sub panel in the garage. To do this I can just use a double pole 60A breaker using 6-3 with ground, correct? I know the sub panel must have an isolated neutral and ground will be bonded to the enclosure.

Thanks

Dan

[HayZee518]

most utilities won't let you put a new meter in the basement of a dwelling [single family or even a duplex] the new meter HAS to go outside. multiple metering is only for apartment complexes and even these are installed outside. ok the existing service is in conduit?? don't get your hopes up that the se conductors will handle 100 amp. a 60 amp existing service used #6 solid conductors. you'll need to install an aux ground rod, water pipe ground and clamps around the meter just like your other installation. the existing entrance pipe is probably a 1 inch rigid conduit. for a sub panel you'll need a two pole 60 feeding a 6-4 cable. neutral is above ground and the equipment ground goes to an auxillary ground bar. I hope you are not getting in over your head.

[DKAudio]

I know meters are required to go outside. I was not going to replace the meter since they don't want to pull a permit and get it inspected. Just put new 4AWG CU in the existing conduit for 100A service.


1" conduit sounds about right and yes, it is all in conduit like the other job only the lines enter under the soffit and meter is in the basement.

The power company from my last job re-applied power before an inspection and the city denied us a pre-inspection and said they will just do 1 final one. Their house currently has power and no inspection has been done yet.

[HayZee518]

according to the NEC you can only use 2 #4 conductors in a one inch conduit. you need to go to a 1 1/4 inch conduit in which you can pull 4 #4s. your entrance only requires three $4s in an inch and a quarter conduit. so you are going to change the conduit to an inch and a quarter. you'll need an inch and a quarter 90 degree threaded sweep, two threaded couplings a new meter socket with an inch and a quarter hub, more conduit and an entrance ell, new panelbox with a 100 amp main breaker, a 60 amp two pole breaker a main lug panel ONLY for the sub panel, xx feet #6-4 for the sub panel feed. a ground rod, ground clamps, #6 bare copper just like you put into the other panel service entrance. if you are using rigid conduit or emt tubing for the load side of the meter socket, you need the bonding bushing system too.

[DKAudio]

Sounds good.

If I use PVC no additional conductors for grounding are required, correct?

I can just bring my ground rod conductor to the meter neutral. No bonding bushings would be required. Then from the panel neutral/ground buss to the water meter.

[HayZee518]

when I do a service entrance I usually look at the exterior's makeup. wooden clapboards or shakes I usually go with se cable unless the owner specifies which he wants and then I offer suggestions. brick, concrete block usually get pvc or rigid conduit with threaded joints. I have never used emt conduit for a service. I have used IMC which is a threadable thinwall conduit. with rigid or IMC you'll need factory made ninety degree sweeps with couplings. all conduit ends that don't screw into a fitting use a double locknut and a metal or plastic bushing. where used at an entrance run, bonding bushings are used throughout along with a proper sized grounding wire.

[DKAudio]

Hmm, maybe I should just use SE cable then (they don't have a masonry exterior). That would just be 4/3 with ground and just clamped to the wall then? At the meter entrance I would need the compression fitting you were talking about for my last job and the weathercap gets lagged to the house with the SE cable exiting?

[HayZee518]

Sounds good.

If I use PVC no additional conductors for grounding are required, correct?

you still need inch and a quarter conduit with three conductors inside it from the weatherhead to meter socket. use an inch and a quarter meter hub and an inch and a quarter pvc adapter. from the bottom of the meter socket you'll need an inch and a quarter male adapter, one locknut and one 1 1/4" plastic bushing. At the panelbox, same an adapter, one locknut and a plastic bushing. no bonds are necessary because the conduit is pvc.

I can just bring my ground rod conductor to the meter neutral.

Yes just like in the other service

No bonding bushings would be required.


Then from the panel neutral/ground buss to the water meter.

exactly like the other waterpipe requirement - unbroken length of #6 bare all the way to the panelbox from the waterpipe coming into the house.

you still need inch and a quarter conduit with three conductors inside it from the weatherhead to meter socket. use an inch and a quarter meter hub and an inch and a quarter pvc adapter. from the bottom of the meter socket you'll need an inch and a quarter male adapter, one locknut and one 1 1/4" plastic bushing. At the panelbox, same an adapter, one locknut and a plastic bushing. no bonds are necessary because the conduit is pvc.

I can just bring my ground rod conductor to the meter neutral.

Yes just like in the other service

No bonding bushings would be required.


Then from the panel neutral/ground buss to the water meter.

exactly like the other waterpipe requirement - unbroken length of #6 bare all the way to the panelbox from the waterpipe coming into the house.

[HayZee518]

you'd use #2/3 SEU aluminum cause I don't think you can get #4 copper

[DKAudio]

Good point, thanks

[Speedy Petey]

DK, are you SERIOUS??????

You are WAY out of your league here and way out of line doing this work!!!!

You are proposing to do a full service upgrade with no permits or inspections, you are not planning on getting the POCO involved (which means you are either cutting the taps yourself or doing it live; BOTH stupid ideas) and you do not even know the proper procedures or requirements.

I can hardly believe what I am reading!

[DKAudio]

How do you know what I have an haven't done?

I have wired many houses from the panel on, I am just asking a few things because the weathercap to meter and meter to panel I have not done much work on before.

I have a degree in electronics and work with big lighting relay panels all over the continental US. 277V/480V at 20A each and large contactors up to 30A.

I suggested a permit and the home owner wanted to go against it, I am not going to be working on live equipement either. The power company is going to come out and remove the crimps, they will reapply power again without a passed inspection (don't ask me why they do it this way here).

Thanks for your comments.

[Speedy Petey]

How do you know what I have an haven't done?

Based on the very basic questions you are asking.

Also, based on this:

I have wired many houses from the panel on, I am just asking a few things because the weathercap to meter and meter to panel I have not done much work on before.

I have a degree in electronics and work with big lighting relay panels all over the continental US. 277V/480V at 20A each and large contactors up to 30A.

Sorry, but your degree is about as related to construction electric as a degree in accounting simply because we do so much math.
Your day work is related, but does not help at all for residential work.




I don't say all this to be rude or condescending. I say it because I strongly disagree with folks doing work for pay so far out of their field of expertise.
This would be like me doing someone's taxes and going to an accounting message board and asking for help how to do it.
I also have to clean up the messes left behind by "handymen" who do "light electrical" or "small jobs". I have seen whole houses wired by these goobers and MUCH of what I see is dangerous since they have a clue how to make it work but NO clue how to do it RIGHT.
You simply CANNOT do a job like this right by asking questions on how to do it.

I credit you for asking questions, but this is not the thing to do when working on someone else's house for pay.

Do you even have insurance? Are you covered for doing electrical work?
I know some homeowners don't care about this (and many workers), but they will when something goes wrong.

[DKAudio]

Ok, maybe I will just recommend they keep their service at 60A but I will change it to a breaker panel. For the subpanel I will recommend 220V 30A and run #10 out to the garage. If they want their service upped then I will recommend that they hire a licensed electrician.

[HayZee518]

what I'm seeing in your installation with the meter in the basement is the line side going to a main pullout or fused knifeswitch, the meter mount on top of the disconnect, plug fuses in the lower section or even perhaps porcelain screw type fuseholders [edison base] if its an old "bulldog" panel then in between two pairs of fuses you have two 120 volt landing lugs - am I correct so far?