Brine Tank Water Level

[Max]

I'm a little confused.....yeah, again.

Everything appears to be working as I expect now except now during the Brine and Rinse phase the brine tank is being completely emptied and the head unit is sucking air. Is this normal or do I have to add more water? The reason I know so little about this is I have never sat and watched it regen before, it usually happens at about 2 or 3 in the morning. Maybe it sucks air all the time (before the broken float assembly). When I ran it about an hour ago, I skipped to the stage that replenishes the water in the brine tank, I thought that step would ensure there is enough water in the tank but apparently not.

Thanks, Max

[Max]

Hi, Folks.

I thought my issues were over but there is one nagging issue, well, two but I think they might be related. As mentioned before, the water softener sucks in air during the second phase. I've noticed that it does something else too. Right at the very end of the process, just before clicking back into Service mode, the head unit makes a really loud noise, like a vibration, that lasts for about 5-7 seconds then it stops and that's it. I can hear it from upstairs very clearly and I am quite sure I would have heard this before at some point. Any ideas? My gut feeling is that there is now not enough water in the brine tank. I will add another gallon and see what happens.

The whole system (softener + pressure tank) is about 20 years old so perhaps it's just time to replace it. We've wanted better water pressure anyway and have been thinking about getting a new pressure tank to help with that. Maybe we just replace everything at once, and maybe add an Iron Max as well to help with the orange water we get from time to time.

Cheers, Max

[Speedbump]

Tanks don't help with the pressure. The pump does that job. The tank only stores the pressure and keeps the pump from cycling too much.

That vibration can be caused by to high of pressure. I've made them do that before by cranking the pressure up over 70 psi and the valve will vibrate like crazy until the camshaft lets it close completely.

Remember that each gallon of water will dissolve approximately 2.5 lbs of salt. Usually, the salt setting is around 8 to 12 lbs. So you only need at most 5 gallons of water in the brine tank.

What brand tank do you have?

[Max]

Thanks, Speedbump.

I thought tanks did help with pressure i.e., if your tank is set to 40-60 and then you increase that to 50-70, wouldn't that mean you have higher pressure? I understand that increasing my water pressure tank pressure would mean that the outside well pump would cycle more but I was thinking if I bought a higher capacity pressure tank I could avoid that. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

By the way, I didn't do anything to the pressure at all, I haven't tweaked any values so the pressure is the same as it was before all of this. I will need to monitor the head unit right before it switches back into service mode to see if I determine what is causing the vibration. If it just sounds bad but isn't actually doing any harm then I guess I can leave it but I don't want it to be failing and ignore it.

My pressure tank is a Well-x-trol. WX-203.

My salt setting on the head unit was about 4 and that seemed low to me so I bumped it up to about 6.5 (figured I would make small adjustments). I'm not sure how much water is in the brine tank now, I think I need to empty it and start from scratch so I am dealing with exact quantities.

Cheers, Max

[Speedbump]

I'm going to ask you to read up on bladder tanks at my FAQ page. It has a lot of info that will explain how one works. FAQ's Just scroll down to bladder tanks.

By increasing your pressure from 30/50 ro 40/60 will indeed raise your pressure by ten pounds, but the pump is what does the increasing. I always said that bigger is better with bladder tanks and it is unless you have a variable speed pump or a constant pressure valve. The less you cycle you pump the better.

I was assuming you have a one cubic foot unit. The fact that your salt setting was so low, may mean you have much less mineral in the softener tank. If you have bad iron, the salt setting may be all gunked up inside also, keeping the right amount of water to get into the brine tank. You can take it out and clean it just like the other two plugs you took out. There is also a ball behind that plug.

I forgot to mention that WX-203's were probably Well X Trols worst tank because of their height. The ones without domes to protect the bladder didn't last too long. If your's isn't bad already, it's probably on borrowed time. Give it a little nudge to one side and see how heavy it feels. It should be real light because the water shouldn't be above 1/4 of the way to the top.

[Max]

Thanks again, SB.

I actually already cleaned out the salt valve. Everything was pretty gunked up. I will check the pressure tank when I get home tonight.

It looks like I will upgrade everything, since it's old and crap. We're renovating our shower so it might be just as well to upgrade this at the same time, especially if we can use their plumber - might save some money by giving him more work. I'll read your FAQ to educate myself a little more.

- Max

[Max]

I checked the pressure tank last night and it seemed very light so that's a good sign.

I don't know how large my brine tank is but I can pour 160lbs in it easily enough.

I don't know how much resin inside the softener but I can tell you that I replaced it all a few years ago. I don't think that's a really common task but I did it anyway since we had had so many iron issues (different story). Anyway, when I filled it I filled it up pretty far. I think if I shine a bright light behind the softener I will be able to see what level it's at if you think that's important information?

Let me ask one final question and then I will start doing some experimentation. When the head unit is sucking brine out the tank, is it ever expected to draw air? If not, should I just stand by the brine tank with some water in a bucket and add it to the brine tank until it stops sucking? The theory being I would ultimately end up with the correct amount of water in my brine tank.

Cheers, Max

[Speedbump]

Sounds like your tank has some life left in it. That's good.

Most tanks will take three 80lb bags.

If your tank is a 9" X 48" which is pretty standard, it's a 1 cu ft unit. It should be filled to all but 11" from the top or so. The flashlight trick works well.

The brine tank and air problem. The softener head will put the correct amount of water in the brine tank during each backwash cycle.
I didn't sell the 168 head enough to be real keen on this, but I think it needs some kind of shutoff valve in the brine tank so it doesn't draw air when the tanks goes empty. I have one called a J-Tube that works great for that application. The 155 head that I'm real familiar with had a ball check system on the head to do the same thing. I don't think the 168 had one though.

[Max]

With respect to the shutoff valve, would that simply be a case of when there is no more water to be sucked up it closes to (1) prevent air being sucked in, and (2) signal to the head that there is no more water? I still have my old float assembly but I can't really tell if it has that valve or not.....but I have another idea. Next time I am bored and sitting in my basement watching the regeneration, when it gets to the sucking air phase I will unscrew the plastic pipe and cover it with my finger, thus simulating a shutoff valve to see what happens. I don't exactly recall how I figured out which float assembly to buy but it's very possible I got the wrong one. I'm not sure if the new one was advertised as a direct replacement or not. The good news is that I think I know what I need now so if I decide to take the repair route, over the replace everything route, I stand a better chance of getting the right parts.

Thanks, Max

[Speedbump]

Your right Max, the valve stops air from getting into the softener tank. Which by the way won't hurt anything if it's not too much air. The J-tube I have is nothing more than a 3/8" OD tube with a floating ball in a plastic screen that sets at the bottom of the brine tank. You connect your draw tubing to the top of the 3/8" tube near the top of the brine tank. When the water stops floating the ball, it drops over a fitted opening that acts like a shut off valve.

If your desperate I can send you one. Shipping would probably far exceed the cost of the tube.