NexPump sump pump system?

[Redwood]

You have 84 gpm coming into this french drain?

If your flow is substantially less than that I'd match the pump closer to avoid cycling which is the enemy of motor life...

Motor starting uses a much higher amperage than run so that puts heat into the windings.

A motor that runs continuously will last forever while the one that starts every 2 minutes is doomed....

I have a customer with a home on an active spring that runs 1 BN-53 almost continuously with a 2nd one as a trim unit used during peak flows. They also have a Aquanot II as the back up with a standby generator. A power outage and generator failure during a peak flow is really the only time that they have to worry, which hasn't happened yet.

I've had very good luck with the Aquanot 12 volt pump knock on wood...

Sounds like debris is not a problem in your system.

Sorry about the confusing turn of the thread but when spammers arrive it sometimes gets hard to sort out the guilty parties...

[Speedbump]

My apologies! This thread took an odd twist for a bit. very frustrating.

Yes it did, but most of that was caused by the spammer who joined in trying to inject some more hype for his product. His username kind of says it all. Most of us don't appreciate spammers, especially the ones who came here for no other reason.

Generac 200K generator

I hope that's another typo, cause with a generator that size, you can run the whole neighborhood.

This site might be helpful to you when talking about running motors with generators and inverters: SIZING A GENERATOR FOR ELECTRIC MOTOR LOADS
It tells the different code letters for motors and the starting amps needed to get one going. It's usually 3 times or better the running amps.

[Cableaddict]

French drains use a perforated pipe surrounded by crushed stone and are sometimes connected to gutter drains and outside storm drains as well. so the debris will typically be stones and earthen materials, leaves and small twigs.

Ah, now I understand where you're coming from. My system is an INTERIOR french drain. Sheathed pvc. It could still clog, theoretically, but I doubt with twigs. Any thoughts on this?

The Sumpro system is a good one as far as 120-volt inverter power supplies but inverters tend to have losses that decrease the run time power available that 12-vdc systems do not have. I don't care much for their 120-volt and 12-volt pumps they offer though.

So what do you recommend as a battery backup system, given that 12v DC pumps are pretty much all questionable?

I figure on using a Sumpro with 2 extra batteries (in addition to a Generac 200K generator, which I just installed) to run a 3/4 HP StormPro ac pump. - This is the only pump that, on paper at least, can give me enough GPH and also run on the Sumpro's current limit. (12a continuous)

I just don't see any other option, except maybe ac pumps with a NexPump 2-pump system as backup.

[Cableaddict]

My apologies! This thread took an odd twist for a bit. very frustrating.

- I appreciate your input on this difficult subject.

[Speedbump]

No agenda, I don't have a dog in this fight. I was just stating a fact.

[Cableaddict]

I can go with the second curve for the 3700, but for one to pump the same amount of water at two different heads is impossible. As the head goes up, the flow goes down. It's simple physics. Unless it's a typo, it's pretty hard to give them any credit for having actually done a pump test on their products.

That was a misprint on my part, sorry.

The 4000 does 3000 @ 7' & 2600 @ 10'
The 3700 does 2600 @ 7' & 2100 @ 10'

- now corrected, above.

[Redwood]

I agree that the ability to safely pass solids is a factor to consider, as per my last post. - Although I wonder what type of solids would ever actually get into a sealed sump / french drain pit? Maybe now we are BOTH overthinking it.
Again, virtually every sump system out there uses a 12v dc pump for battery backup. They can't ALL be failing constantly.

French drains use a perforated pipe surrounded by crushed stone and are sometimes connected to gutter drains and outside storm drains as well. so the debris will typically be stones and earthen materials, leaves and small twigs. The M53 will pass 1/2" spherical solids and has enough power to chew up twigs. Larger solids will not pass through the holes in perf. pipe and if they do get into the line somehow they tend to remain in place as they are heavier.

Some 12 volt pumps are quite reliable others aren't so. The good ones tend to last quite a while.

Both of those pumps are VERY prone to float & switch failure. So say all the retailers who sell them, the overwhelming online reviews, and even a Zoeller tech I spoke with. The pumps themselves, though, will last forever. I personally know 2 people within 6 houses of me that had brand new M53's fail due to bad floats, and one of the two that my contractor initially put into my pit HAD A BAD SWITCH OUT OF THE BOX.

I have experienced very few failures of the switches on M53 pumps myself. In fact the one in my basement has over 20 years of use with the original built in switch. You can always install the BN53 model pump without the switch and use a piggyback float switch if you want. When I have had pumps that had switches fail I rewired eliminating the built in float switch and installed the piggy back float switch. On many installs I use them anyway so I can have custom settings adjusted for the pit size.

As for testing, both the Zoeller tech and the Storm Pro tech told me that testing is MANDATORY at least once a month. It's especially important if you had hard water (which I do) as calcium deposits can build up & clog the impeller.

Testing is a good thing, even on my own pump I don't test it all that often. My water table tends to come in seasons so I inspect and test before the spring thaw and sometimes before unusually heavy storms are expected like this past week when Irene came through.

Battery systems do require more testing and maintenance due to their complexity and battery maintenance needs. As long as the charger is not overcharging very little electrolyte replenishment is required with new batteries, but as they get older the need becomes more frequent. If the cells are allowed to go dry the battery is toast and usually about the time the battery starts requiring electrolyte replenishment on a regular basis the capacity is falling off anyway. Specific gravity testing as per the instructions I linked earlier will reveal that drop in capacity.

I'm going to stay with AC pumps, including for the battery backup system. (will use a Sumpro battery unit with 4 batteries.)

The Sumpro system is a good one as far as 120-volt inverter power supplies but inverters tend to have losses that decrease the run time power available that 12-vdc systems do not have. I don't care much for their 120-volt and 12-volt pumps they offer though.

[Cableaddict]

The Zoeller M53 and Aquanot II ... will pass solids that your bilge pump would not dream of doing so.

I agree that the ability to safely pass solids is a factor to consider, as per my last post. - Although I wonder what type of solids would ever actually get into a sealed sump / french drain pit? Maybe now we are BOTH overthinking it.
Again, virtually every sump system out there uses a 12v dc pump for battery backup. They can't ALL be failing constantly. (although many do.)

The Zoeller M53 and Aquanot II are very reliable... The reliability and testing really is not required like you think it is. These pumps work! It's that simple!

No, it's not. Once again how about we stick to the facts? (no offense intended.) I'm having a hard enough time deciding as it is! Both of those pumps are VERY prone to float & switch failure. So say all the retailers who sell them, the overwhelming online reviews, and even a Zoeller tech I spoke with. The pumps themselves, though, will last forever. I personally know 2 people within 6 houses of me that had brand new M53's fail due to bad floats, and one of the two that my contractor initially put into my pit HAD A BAD SWITCH OUT OF THE BOX.

So please, a little reality here ....

As for testing, both the Zoeller tech and the Storm Pro tech told me that testing is MANDATORY at least once a month. It's especially important if you had hard water (which I do) as calcium deposits can build up & clog the impeller.

Anyway, all I wanted was to here from a few long-term members who had this system installed. Sadly, just like all the other forums, there is no one. This system does not seem to exist in the real world. I'm going to stay with AC pumps, including for the battery backup system. (will use a Sumpro battery unit with 4 batteries.)

[Speedbump]

FWIW, I just got the head performance curves from Rule:

Rule 4000: 2,600 GPH @ 7' / 2,600 GPH @ 10'
Rule 3700: 3,000 GPH @ 7' / 2,100 GPH @ 10'

I can go with the second curve for the 3700, but for one to pump the same amount of water at two different heads is impossible. As the head goes up, the flow goes down. It's simple physics. Unless it's a typo, it's pretty hard to give them any credit for having actually done a pump test on their products.

[Redwood]

Lets just cut to the chase...

The Rule Pumps are overpriced lightweight garbage if you want to install one go ahead.... They are a bilge pump and thats all they are...

The water powered pump linked by HayZee requires a uninterrupted water source of at least 30 psi to the pump, which rules out any home on a well. The water powered pump also requires a backflow prevention device which puts the installation cost right in line with a battery powered pump. They also with the best possible models (Zoeller & Liberty) use 1 gallon of water for every 2 pumped out and that is at maximum pressure supplied (80 psi) actual performance is reduced as supplied pressure is lower. In addition to generating 33% more water to dispose you are faced with a water bill that can be quite large.

The Zoeller M53 and Aquanot II are very reliable and you should expect a long service life in addition they will pass solids that your bilge pump would not dream of doing so. The reliability and testing really is not required like you think it is. These pumps work! It's that simple! Routine battery maintenance is required but that is the same on any battery back up pump and testing is recommended to ensure the capacity does not fall off as the end of the battery life approaches.

If you want a reliable 120-volt system then install dual Zoeller M53 pumps with an alternating control and an alarm on the system that will let you know when you are down to a single pump. Then install a generator with auto transfer to power the pumps in an outage. However, you will then be testing the generator and maintaining that as well.

As for the basement waterproofers installing cheapo Wayne Pumps that is what they do. It's profit driven and they last long enough to make it out of the guarantee period.

There is no way around it, any system installed will require some testing and maintenance. But some require a lot less than others and don't have highly marketed tests of dubious value.

The choice is yours do what you want with the information provided. I'm just a plumber that has worked on hundreds of systems and I know what works and doesn't. I have told you what I would do for my customers because I like to have my customers call me back for other work, and tell their friends about me, the one way I know of to have this happen is to give them plumbing that works, at a fair price. That's what I do!

[Cableaddict]

FWIW, I just got the head performance curves from Rule:

(note: I originally posted the wrong numbers. Now corrected.)

Rule 4000: 3,000 GPH @ 7' / 2,600 GPH @ 10'
Rule 3700: 2,600 GPH @ 7' / 2,100 GPH @ 10'

Not as strong as a 1/3 hp ac pump, but good enough for me, esp as I have 7' of actual lift, and would be using FOUR pumps in the pit.

Again, the big question is reliability.

Sadly, they are being very evasive about the reliability issue, simply saying that these aren't for "continuous" use.

Another possible problem: Rule recommends routinely removing the strainer & manually cleaning-out debris. I guess 12v pumps, because they are not powerful, can't shop-up & pass debris like most ac pumps can. - but you can't manually clean a sump pump. I imagine this is also true of all the other dc pumps being used as backup systems. - Maybe that's the main reason they fail?

I'm running out of hope at this point.

[Cableaddict]

If you are so concerned about the lifespan of Rule pumps, then install a $100 120 volt pump and set the NexPump up as a backup. The inventor shows how to do this on his site.

And I'd rather not have to go through the hassle of manually performing deep cycle battery testing. I've got better things to do with my life. NexPump checks it twice a day automatically.

The battery testing isn't the big issue, it's the automatic PUMP testing.
As I told the inventor: (is that you, by any chance?) Installing NexPump as the backup, with an AC pump primary, doesn't make much sense, because you'd still have to fill the pit with water and test / exercise the ac pumps at least once a month.

[HayZee518]

OK, I'm no plumber. I'm an ex master electrician with an extensive background in mechanical systems.
Somebody wants a sump pump with reliability. An electric pump is the first one to come to mind.
Follow this link. It is a water powered sump pump.
Basepump water powered backup sump pump that uses water pressure to pump water!

[Cableaddict]

....And if this pump and the 4000 are reworked bilge pumps, PROVE IT with facts, not a bunch of rhetoric

Well, actually, there are not reworked anything, they are JUST bilge pumps. That's exactly what they are designed for. Nothing else. (So says Rule themselves.)

- But again, this doesn't mean they automatically can't work in a sump pit. Evidently many people have had good success with much cheaper 12v dc pumps in the sumps. Sadly many others have had such pumps go bad in short order. How to ascertain if the Rule 4000, (or is it the 3700?) which seems to be about the most robust (and most expensive) 12v bilge pump available, would hold up under, say, a 50% duty cycle for 10 hrs?

Sadly, except for one poster here, (who joined simply to respond to me) I can find no one, absolutely NO one online who has ever used these pumps in a pit, and no one at all that has used the NexPump system. Weird. (And the company does seem very aggressive in their self-promotion. This isn't the only thread where someone joined a forum just to respond to my query, with glowing words about NexPump but no urls, facts, or whatever.)

It's really strange, and worrisome.

But I just can't let go of the idea that this system MIGHT work, since if it did it would be wonderful.
My thinking is: What's a better pump, a somewhat weak dc pump that pushes maybe 2100 GPH (with 4 of them in the pit) or a robust ac pump that doesn't pump ANYTHING, because you forgot to test it and it got all caked with calcium?

[Cableaddict]

Now as to your stubbornness and persistance in tooting the value of this system, I personally believe that you are not a consumer interested in purchasing the system, but rather someone that has a vested interest in selling this system. Thanks for spamming this forum as part of your marketing effort!

I appreciate your help, but man, you're getting a little arrogant, don't you think?

I do believe there IS one poster here who works for that company. It's pretty obvious, but kindly save your vitriol for HIM.

I've done nothing but raise questions about the reliability of these pumps. What exactly is your problem? For the record (I actually have to say this?) I don't have any association with NexPump. I just DESPERATELY want to install a system that doesn't have to be checked every month, even though NexPump is looking less & less like a good idea. I still have some hope...

One must also ask: Since flooding and power outages very commonly happen at the same time, why does virtually every waterproofing company put in a single, cheap 12v dc pump (+ battery) as the backup system? I mean, this will be the primary system probably 1 time out of three. It's just nuts... And yes, those cheapo Wayne - type battery systems are know to fail very often. That's exactly why I'm hesitant. At the same time, a bare (no float or switch) Rule 4000 retails at ~ $180. A Bare Zoeller M53 is about $95. Maybe the Rule pump is actually well made?

If you want to say that bilge pumps are never going to be reliable in sump pits, then every single sump & french Drain system in the world needs to have their battery-backup pumps pulled immediately, since that's what they all use. - And maybe they should, but you can see my point. It probably depends upon the service factor, and of course the particular pump used.
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As far as GPM at 10', we know that they do at least 21, based on a YouTube video made by a guy trying to criticize this system. So OK, they might pump about 1/2 what the company claims, but 2 of them will still fit my needs, especially with another system (2 more pumps) installed as backup.

My main concern, and it still is not looking good, is reliability over the long haul. If I don't install NexPump, which is probable at this point, then I'm going to install an all-ac pump system, including the backup pump, using a much larger battery array.

Anyway, I've sent an email query to Rule. Waiting on their response.