Well/Holding tank loosing pressure.

[DKAudio]

Yesterday was the first I noticed this but my holding tank is loosing pressure while no spigot for water is open. There are no water or air leaks that I can find. The PSI drops pretty quick and will go all the way to 0.

Pump is a 3/4 HP submersible and my holding tank is a big galvanized one, probably around 50-75 gallons. A couple years ago I installed a schroeder valve so I can pump air into the tank which helped reduce the cycling a lot.

I guess I am lost, the pump is still pumping...I even cut power to the pump coils, no spigots open and the PSI still drops. Does this mean the well is getting dry?

[HayZee518]

does the inlet to the pump have a foot valve? does the tank have a check valve between the pump and tank?

[DKAudio]

I found the manual for the pump. It is a Myers 3/4 HP J711P installed in 1990. According to the manual the top of the pump has a check valve on it. There is also a brass colored cylindrical shaped item before the holding tank, I assume this is a check valve too?

I have no idea how far down the pump is. What kind of pipe do they typically use and is it in 10' sections? I have 1 glass block in my concrete back stoop that must be removed to get the pipe up, how would a glass block seal in concrete though?

[HayZee518]

the pump is connected to the riser at its upper end. the pipe is one continuous length of plastic pipe with a barbed end at the pump side and an angle discharge fitting where the line goes to your house. as you said there is a check or foot valve at the pump and that brass thingie is your other check valve. mounted horizontally it is called a swing check valve. because it is held closed by gravity and back water pressure it can leak somewhat. the swing cap is machined and its seat is also machined brass. your storage tank doesn't have an air bladder from what I'm reading so air can dissolve into your water thereby reducing the back pressure in your tank. so, given that I'd say check your tank pressure about twice a month. add air as you need it.

[DKAudio]

Right, there is no bladder in the tank so I fill it with air when need be. I filled it this spring and everything was working great until Friday. The pressure drops fast with no spigot open so I am thinking that horizontal check valve failed open. All of my lines appear to be cast iron or more likely galvanized steel. I do not see a union either, otherwise changing that check valve would be pretty easy. It would be nice to get a small tank with a bladder and get rid of the huge holding tank too.

Just out of curiousity how much does the average pump and riser pipe weigh? I know that is dependent on the depth but just an average. Do you need a machine to lift it out or can a couple guys do it?

[HayZee518]

a lady in another post had to pull her pump. she said it went down 90 feet - she used a chain fall and a cherry picker to lift it out. it was probably a three stage pump. a few hefty guys can lift it out but be prepared to be able to coil up the plastic pipe that comes out when you pull it.

[DKAudio]

Coil the pipe? Isn't is rigid?

[HayZee518]

Nope! It's rigid to a point but it's also flexible a little. Take a trip to a big box store and look into their plumbing section for BLACK WELL PIPE. One inch may be your pump's outlet, I'm just guessing. Grab hold of it and try to bend it. you'll see it gives a little. Now imagine that coming out of your well. the whole ninety feet or whatever depth you have will be laid out on your property. It's heavy! Find that other post. I made a diagram for her about making a clamp device to hold the well pipe as you bring it up.

[Gary Slusser]

Your drop pipe down the well can be galvanized or sch 40 or 80 PVC or PE (polyethylene) pipe; black or blue. The galvanized will be threaded 21' and PVC usually 20' threaded sections. I've even seen soldered copper once or twice.

There should not be a check valve, swing or spring loaded (which is the usual type) anywhere but in or on the outlet of a submersible pump. Many timesp eople add one at the tank because they have a leak in the drop pipe or the pump's check valve. having one there hides leaks between it and the one in/on the submersible pump, which is not good.

Unless you know how deep the pump is in the well, or how deep the well is to get an idea of pump depth, pulling the pump could be quite an adventure, especially with 20-21' sections of pipe. You have to prevent things from falling down the well as you stop pulling it to unscrew the sections.

You need to fix the leak and stop the pump from cycling or you'll burn up the motor; it's very hard on motors. If you have a broken fitting you can lose the pump down the well if the fitting breaks off.

[DKAudio]

I took some plumbing apart and took off the 90° on the top of the well seal. The downpipe is dry so either the check valve on the top of the pump failed (there is one) or there is a hole in the galvanized pipe. I pulled the pipe up and it has to weigh at least 250lbs. I am going to get some guys over and pull the whole thing out.

[DKAudio]

Ok, I have an update. I pulled the pump out with some help from friends. The pipe is all steel in 21' sections. The total length was 117'. I used a bobber and hit water at 91'. There were some holes in the downpipe and multiple chips, there was also an "air maker system". I will get rid of all that and install a new bladder tank. I am ready to drop the pump back in but have some questions. Should I use polyethylene or Sch 80 PVC for the downpipe? I am concerned with the barb fittings holding up a 50lb pump. If I use PE, do they have barb to NPT fittings? There is a check valve on top of the pump that is threaded NPT for 1" ID pipe. If I use Sch 80, what type of fittings do I use, solvent to threaded? Would I use anything on the threads?

The 1 reason I don't really want to use PE is because it is sold in 100' lengths and I need to drop it 117'. I would have to buy 200' just to do it.

Thanks

[HayZee518]

use the black polyethylene chloride well pipe - it is flexible to take up any pulsations the pump has to offer. the barb end into the pump with a couple of stainless steel radiator clamps will hold the weight of the pump and follower pipe [tubing]

[Gary Slusser]

PE pipe has been used to 500' with up to 2 hp pumps for 50 years, on insert fittings with hose clamps. And you're worried... Use 160 psi rated 1" PE and buy a 200' roll (it is less expensive than 120' of PVC, glue, cleaner, fittings, tape or dope) at a pump, plumbing supply house or Ace Hardware and double oppose clamp it with SS marine grade clamps and buy the T handle torque wrench for the clamps and quit worrying. Don't over tighten the clamps or heat the pipe more than room temp and do it inside and outside evenly.

Man it's only 117'... Use extended insert fittings if yer scared.

[DKAudio]

Wow, that makes me feel better. I will buy all brass barb fittings if I can find them. Thanks

[mrcaptainbob]

Well pump...

Additionally, there usually is an eye on the top of the pump housing. Use that to attach a 1/2" poly or nylon rope to and tie the other end off to the well head top at the pitless adapter end. This is good insurance for the future people who may have to pull it...