water on ceiling under toilet

[TNprogrammer]

Yesterday I found water marks on our downstairs ceiling directly under our upstairs master toilet. I pulled up the toilet today and found that the plastic flange was cracked across the top lip. No water had run out onto the floor underneath the toilet even though the back of the toilet base was not caulked. I tried to upload the pic of the flange, but this site won't let me until I've made 15 posts.
There was no way right now to cut into the ceiling from downstairs to get a better look, so I wanted to get your opinions on what I did. I went to Home Depot and got one of the metal flange repair rings and a new number 3 wax ring with a funnel on it. I screwed on the repair ring, put on the new wax ring and screwed the toilet back down. The old wax ring, which did NOT have the funnel on it, actually looked pretty solid, but it was very thin. Opinions? thanks.

[The Builder]

If you didn't get any leaks, and depending on the longivity of the repair, leave as is. As long as it is a tight seal let the wax ring with the insert do its job. The flange repair kit is a very reasonable price material, but effect replacement

[pushkins]

The smallest of cracks in the flange will produce a small yet inevitable leak, sometimes it can take weeks/months for the leak to show on drywall, it just depends how small a leak it is, remember, the leak is only leaking while you flush the toilet, after the waste water has passed the leak, it leaks no more, unlike a faucet leak that leaks 24/7.
The repair flange that you bought along with the wax ring with rubber insert should solve your problem. If you want to check it, with a pencil put a small line around the water mark on the ceiling below, this way you can see if it grows. If it doesn't over the next few days (make sure you use the toilet) then (assuming there is no bad drywall damage other than a water mark) paint on a coat of Zinsser (Kilz) or BINS, then when dry repaint the effected area with ceiling paint.

[TNprogrammer]

Thanks for the replies and your opinions on the fix. I guess I was concerned that the crack couldn't really be responsible for letting the water escape and maybe I had a leak at the PVC joint or something. I've flushed the toilet probably 20 times since I made the repair yesterday and I haven't noticed the water marks get bigger or wetter. I'd still like to cut into the ceiling to make absolutely sure that everything is alright. The biggest pain in the rear is that the water damage happened right at the wall/ceiling seam, and I have crown molding in place. I've been looking for a reason to redo the crown molding anyway We've dealt with several instances of water damage on this house already, and it's only 13 years old, so I'm a bit jumpy about this stuff. Two years ago I had to replace a 3' x 3' section of flooring in our living room because water seeped through the brick and was soaked up by the flooring in the corner of the room. Yeah...that was fun.

[HayZee518]

Imagine the water closet flange to be just the end of a large pipe - your main drain. the flange screws into your sub-floor to keep it from moving and the closet bolts secure the toilet porcelain to the flange with the wax ring with or without the tapered piece serving as the gasket.

[TNprogrammer]

Yes, before I did my research I had envisioned the flange as being a piece that just inserted into a pipe that was attached to the bottom of the subfloor, with maybe some sort of gasket to help seal it inside the pipe. I figured I could unscrew the flange, lift it out and replace it. I didn't realize it was glued to the pipe coming in from below. Obviously, it makes perfect sense in order to make a water tight seal. I've done tons of plumbing projects, but I've NEVER installed the plubming inside the walls or under the house. I can replace stuff that's already there easy enough, but I know just enough to screw up a new install Thanks again for the input guys.

BTW, here's a link to a pic of the flange so you can see the damage:
i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq336/TNprogrammer/DSC03905.jpg

[Psycho0124]

Well there's your problem! That flange should be sitting firmly on the concrete. See how some of it is resting on tile and the rest is unsupported? I see a semi-circular cut on one of the tiles which makes it seem like the tile man was going to do it right and tile around where the flange goes. Guess he changed his mind..

I'd remove the flange, carefully chip out the tile underneath it and install a new one firmly on the floor.

Taking out the old flange can be tricky but if you take your time, it shouldn't be a problem. Start by looking down into the flange. See that O shaped cuff that fits down into the PVC line in there? You'll need to use a saws-all and make 2 cuts into that cuff about an inch apart. Do not cut into the pipe that the flange is glued into (this is the most important part of the job as you want that pipe intact for the new flange). The piece of flange cuff between the cuts can be pried outta there with a pocket knife or thin chisel, leaving the cuff in the shape of a C. If you can't get it to pop off, try making one more cut right between your previous two and pry on a smaller piece. PVC glue gets pretty brittle after not too long so once you've got this part done, the rest should be fairly easy. Work your way around that cuff, making additional cuts and prying out pieces as you go.

Once it's out, inspect the inside of the pipe. If you've got big chunks of glue or pvc from the flange still stuck on, carefully pick them off with your chisel or sand them smooth with a little sand paper. Don't go overboard or you won't be able to get a good seal when you glue in the new one.

[TNprogrammer]

Yep. There's no doubt that they did a pretty crappy job of installing the flange. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they cracked it when they screwed it in and just left it that way. You'd think a good plumber would do something to give himself a better install base, but if he wouldn't even go that far then he's probably the kind of guy that would leave a cracked flange.
Psycho, just so I'm understanding what you're saying...you want me to make some vertical cuts in the flange pipe so that I can basically "peel" it away from the inside of the pipe coming up from below? Sounds doable. Obviously, I'd need to make sure not to cut through the outer pipe or I'd be screwed If I chip away the tile and cement board and screw the flange directly to the subfloor won't I need to pick up a taller wax ring to deal with the recessed flange? Thanks.

[EDIT] After looking at the pic again, I realize that I may be confused. Does the flange fit down inside the pipe, or does it fit around the outside of it?

[Psycho0124]

[EDIT] After looking at the pic again, I realize that I may be confused. Does the flange fit down inside the pipe, or does it fit around the outside of it?

Ahh, you're right! That looks like an outside fitting flange! The inside fitting ones are a lot more common (down here at least) because they tend to leak a little less often. We kept a few outside fitting ones the trucks for when we chewed up the inside of the pipe too much on removing an old flange. Some would complain that the inside fitting ones can clog up more often (because of smaller pipe diameter) but I've never encountered a clog at that point (the goose-neck in the toilet is far more often the culprit of toilet clogs). Well that makes removing it much easier!


To replace it, you can just chop everything off at floor level and swap in an inside fitting flange. You can use a drill with a side-cutting bit and have at it!

If the tile were too much thicker it might be a concern but the wax ring should be able to handle a moderate gap. If it's any more than about 1/4" from floor level, you can put on an extender to bring up the flange height, or you could get a reinforced wax ring like this one:

http://www.antonline.com/p_004375-GP_401830.htm

EDIT: Hey you could also just cut out and attach a piece of sturdy plywood to the subfloor and mount the flange to that as a spacer to give you the height you need. This would be the ideal solution really. Check this out:

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/bath/projects/remod_w1/toilet/new_1/flange_offset.htm

[TNprogrammer]

Psycho, the reinforced wax ring you linked to was the type I installed. I still plan on cutting into the ceiling. I'll probably do it next month, or sooner if I notice more water damage. We've flushed the toilet a whole bunch over the last couple of days and the ceiling still seems dry. But like you guys have mentioned, the whole install is kinda crappy, and needs to be cleaned up. I'm going to replace the rings on the other two toilets. If they're as messy as this one was, I'm going to take the time to go ahead and clean up the flooring support.

[Redwood]

If you are replacing closet flanges I myself prefer using ones that have stainless steel rings vs. all plastic or, ones with painted steel rings.
The plastic ones break as you have seen and the steel rings rust out...
Stainless Steel rings make a bullet proof installation.

[HawaiianIrish]

Issues

Aloha,
I think I more difficult issue in my house. Apparently there's a big crack in the ceiling of the kitchen, which directly below the upstairs, main toilet. Everytime anyone uses the toilet and plunges it, there is water dripping from the crack in the ceiling. My question is.....can I be able to, first of all, open the crack in the ceiling to a square and determine what is going on under the toilet. And if so, that would mean that I could repair the leak once I find the problem. I believe the ceiling is plaster......it was built in 1923 and hasnt been altered much, especially the ceiling.

[HayZee518]

before you start ripping everything up, try changing the wax ring seal. they only cost around 5 dollars. if you still have a leak, THEN go digging in further.

[diyguy427]

I read through your post and the responses. Guess I have to say, "Been there, done that" on DIY projects. If you decide to hire someone, I would strongly encourage you to check them out first. Too many horror stories about contractors, etc. doing sub-standard work and/or shortcuts that can compromise the situation.