Please explain to me the process of pulling permits, inspections, etc...

[DKAudio]

My brother in laws sister is installing living spaces in their basement. Right now it is cinder blocks, small windows, no framing... They are going to frame, put in egress, and do electrical. I assume they are supposed to pull a permit? What would something like that cost, is it needed, etc? They are having all the work done by unlicensed people (handymen). After they pull the permit, do the work then they should get it inspected, correct? Cost for inspection?

I am the one who is going to do the electrical. Right now they have a 100A fuse box that I am going to change to a breaker box. To do this the tag on the meter needs to be cut and the plastic gauge pulled out, correct? I know it is illegal for me to do this so we are having the done. Once I get the box in and hooked up we will have someone come back out to retag it. This would be the correct process, right?

As far as codes go I have the following questions, please let me know if they are still current.

Max 10 outlets on a 15A circuit using 14/2 w/ ground NMB
Max 13 outlets on a 20A circuit using 12/2 w/ ground NMB
Load must be under 80% of breaker rating
Bored holes through joists must be at least 1 1/4" from edge, otherwise stell plate must be used.
Leave >6" of wire in boxes
4AWG feed for 100A service
Bathroom must be dedicated 20A with GFCI

Think that is all I would be dealing with, thanks

[HayZee518]

so far your estimates are correct. Permits: you need a building permit how much call the town hall or city hall building department. they'll tell you what can be done by the homeowner and what cannot be done. Electrical requires two inspections a rough and a final. plumbing a rough before concrete is poured and before wall finish is put up. drilled holes in joist and framing members is approx center. where closer to an edge, steel "nail plates" must be used. 4awg aluminum seu for the service or 2/3 copper. disregard my posting I made a mistake on wire size.

[DKAudio]

HayZee,
I just saw you wrote about a derating rule (more than 3 condutors through a joist). Is this a concern in a project like I mentioned above? I never thought have more than 3 conductors through a joist will cause heat damage. I understand for industrial/commercial but residential? Is this a code?

Also you said 4 awg AL service for 100A or 2/3 copper. What do you mean by 2/3? Copper can take a high current than al for same gauge, I would think 6awg copper if AL can be 4.

[pushkins]

Permits are usually calculated by most counties on a sliding scale ie: $0 - $5000 cost = $60, $5001 - $9000 = $90 for example.

Be careful when your handyman asked you to pull a permit, when "you" pull a permit that makes YOU responsible for all work done, if it's incorrect then it is up to you to have the handyman correct it.

Usually when the homeowner "pulls" the permit they can perform everything (other than gas work) as mentioned above the permit "puller" is responsible for all inspections.

[HayZee518]

for electrical in a residence the electrical equivelant to copper wire size is one gauge higher. that is why I said 2/3 copper can be used but most of the time a 4/3 aluminum is used. it is cheaper and can safely handle 100 amps of current.
ok. here's a quote from the codebook:
MORE THAN THREE CURRENT CARRYING CONDUCTORS IN A RACEWAY OR CABLE. where the maximun number of current carrying conductors exceed three then the ampacities are reduced. - 4 to 6 -- 80%, 7 thru 9 --70%, 10 thru 20 --50%, 21 thru 30 --45%, 31 thru 40 -- 40%, 41 and above -- 35%. Notes: where cables or single conductors are stacked or bundled NOT in a cable assembly or in conduit, the above tables apply where the combined length is more than 24 inches.

[DKAudio]

Very good, so in a residence having ~7-8 conductors sholdn't be an issue.

that is why I said 2/3 copper can be used but most of the time a 4/3 aluminum is used.

I guess I don't understand. Copper 2-3 awg is bigger than aluminum 3-4 awg. It has to be the other way...if aluminum is 2-3 awg then if you use copper it can be 3-4 awg.

Max 10 outlets on a 15A circuit using 14/2 w/ ground NMB
Max 13 outlets on a 20A circuit using 12/2 w/ ground NMB

How does this apply if an overhead light and wall switch are on the same circuit? Just take away a few outlets?

Be careful when your handyman asked you to pull a permit, when "you" pull a permit that makes YOU responsible for all work done, if it's incorrect then it is up to you to have the handyman correct it.

Usually when the homeowner "pulls" the permit they can perform everything (other than gas work) as mentioned above the permit "puller" is responsible for all inspections.

I am the handyman, I am being hired, not hiring.

I understand the principles of electricity very well, it comes 2nd nature to me. I am just not aware of all the codes, I know most of them though. My degree is in electronics so I am aware of all the electrical laws.

Thanks

[HayZee518]

7-8 current carrying conductors, according to the code must have their amperage capacity reduced by 70% if bundled together. if laid out flat on a nail board they retain their current rating, or nailed to the face of a joist. ok -- say, 8 12/2 romex cables of 20 amps each times 70% equals no more than 14 amps each. this is due to radial heating.
I am to be corrected. I checked and misled you. 2/3 aluminum will carry 100 amps. I looked in the book and checked outside I got some SEU aluminum for 100 amp -- it's 2/3 aluminum.

[DKAudio]

Great, thank you.

What about this question...

Max 10 outlets on a 15A circuit using 14/2 w/ ground NMB
Max 13 outlets on a 20A circuit using 12/2 w/ ground NMB

How does this apply if an overhead light and wall switch are on the same circuit? Just take away a few outlets?

I think that is all I have for now. They are framing right now and I will start the electrical in about a week.

Thanks for all the help.

[HayZee518]

lighting loads for dwellings is 3 watts per square foot. what fixtures you use or go about getting THAT figure is up to you or the homeowners. most places I've wired I use seperate lighting circuits, but in a pinch if you take a feeder off an outlet for one or two lights, nobody is gonna complain. lighting is called an incidental load. you don't need to deduct anything from a circuit. as far as the service change goes. I'd call the power company and ask if you could cut the meter seal. find out their requirements with regard to grounding. some places want your driven ground to be connected at the meter neutral within the meter box. for building permits you need a rough and finish electrical. for plumbing you need a rough inspection before a pour for floor drains and a rough for house plumbing and pressure testing of water lines. bulding framing a rough from the building inspector. sometimes they require a room or house plan before they will inspect anything.

[DKAudio]

Ok, slow process but they are done framing and ready for electrical. They pulled a whole house permit and the electric company is going to come out on Sat to disconnect the mains. I understand the electrical part but have some more basic questions (I am a little un-easy since I have never done a breaker panel and a whole floor for someone else). We are keeping their existing mains.

Do I need to know anything about changing a fuse panel to a breaker panel? The fuse panel is 100A and I will keep the breaker panel the same. I will probably buy a GE since I have heard about some Square D stuff being counterfeit. What about torque for the mains, big deal or not?

Since they are pulling a permit and hiring me (this is my brother in laws sister) do I need to do anything? I assume they are still liable since I am not a professional? Should I have them sign a liability waiver? I am not worried about doing this, just never changed out panels and dealt with permit work, etc. I can borrow a hydraulic Green Lee punch set from work in case the new panels knock-outs aren't in the right spot for their existing pipe, etc.

Thanks for all the help, any other tips would be appreciated.

[HayZee518]

some jurisdictions allow a homeowner permit for electrical. in massachusetts where I wired houses they had an uninsured installers waiver for insurance. that way if something cooked they couldn't come back on me. [thankfully nothing ever did - 37 houses] check the size of the conductors coming out of the meter socket. all the power co is gonna do is pull the meter put some insulators on the stabs and shove the meter back in place and reseal it. you might consider replacing the wires from the load side of the meter to the new panel because they are never the correct length. make sure you use no-alox anti oxidant on all connections. torque is mentioned on the panel's nomenclature paper so many foot pounds or inch pounds. rule of thumb tighten it then wait a few minutes then retighten, then leave it alone.

[DKAudio]

Hmm, I never thought I would need to replace the main wires. Can I even buy 4 AWG CU or 2 AWG AL at Home Depot? Do you have a pic on how the wires are landed inside the meter, never looked inside one before. I am going to go over there tomorrow to take the cover off their fuse panel. I want to be sure there are no big suprises as I haven't peaked in yet.

Do I use the no-alox on just AL or CU too? I just do this on the main conductors, right? Also available at HD?

Man, it would be nice if they just had CU and some good length too

[HayZee518]

No-alox is good on all conductors most especially the service entrance conductors Cu or Al. But you hardly see it at outlet and switch terminations because it's so messy. In the case of aluminum branch conductors I'd use it but you hardly see aluminum on branch circuits. Use it if you have copper clad aluminum but again here's a conductor you hardly ever seen used. inside the meter enclosure are four stabs. two up top are the line, two at the bottom are load. right smack in the center between the four meter landings is the neutral clamps (2) the load is on the bottom along with a driven ground IF you utility uses this as the equipment ground or driven ground location. I may have a meter enclosure in my garage. I'll go look and submit a picture.

[DKAudio]

Thank you. I can reply tonight after I pull their fuse panel cover with my findings.

All meters and breaker panels can accept CU or AL, right?

[HayZee518]

most panels within the last 20-25 years are marked cu-al. the clamps are aluminum hard drawn, their screws are aluminum or cadmium plated steel.