Depression at least six inches deep going around corner of house-in-back

[Sunshine]

My home is located in a mountainous area - at the base of an incline with the home situated on another incline.

I have been having problems with water in the cellar for the past several years. Finally, this year, I had my "worker" put the 4" vinyl pipes from the downspouts to lead away from the house for at least 20 feet.

I thought I had the problem resolved. However, during a heavy and windy storm during the evening of 6/22/2006 I found water on the cellar floor with the water coming from the back corner of the house.

My thoughts - even tho' we had put the 4" vinyl pipes there - the area beneath the pipe in back of the house lays low - there is a depression at least six inches deep going around the corner of the house - and that depression might be at least 12-16" wide. (I have to assume that with the hard driving rain - the rain water could conceivably collect there - and then found its way into the cellar.)

Would it be advisable to fill that depression with dirt and/or real top soil? My concern - filling that area with dirt would place the dirt up against the aluminum siding. The aluminum siding is position almost at ground level. Would that, in time, be detrimental of the siding? It is aluminum siding not vinyl.

Would it be better to place such as a vinyl or other heavier type of fabric beneath the soil and allow the material to "rest" against the lower portion of the house? I would have to believe that if I do that - it truly should be at least three inches up against the aluminum siding.

I have read a reply written by Kactuskid in reponse to a concern from DKAudio - and he clearly indicated that the dirt (earth) should be a few inches below the siding.

I would appreciate some input into my concern. Thank you.

[pushkins]

NEVER and I repeat NEVER add dirt/soil/fill over the top of any siding be it wood, vinyl or aluminum.

From your description I would agree that your basement water is coming from the collection of water at the rear of your house in that 6" x 12"-16" depression you spoke about.
You could add a perimeter drain to that side of the house to drain the water away from the foundation and down the side of the property.
Water likes to follow the path of least resistance and unfortunately that often is "through" basement walls.
You need to determine if the water is ground seepage or is it water run off accumulating. If it is water run off then a simple drain to guide the water around the house would probably solve your problems.
If it is ground seepage then a perimeter drain is about the only thing that will solve your problem.

[Sunshine]

Thank you "Pushkins" - Frankly, I don't know if I am responding to your message in the correct manner. The use of a "discussion forum" is really new to me. So, I am feeling my way as I go along.

I want to thank you for your response of June 26th. However, I am not certain what a perimeter drain might be.

As I indicated in my original posting - my home is situated at the base of an incline (small mountain) and actually sitting on the surface of a second.

I have given consideration to asking my "worker" to actually dig such as a trench area from the base of the house toward the ditch (or whatever that is) that is between the two inclines. The thought - actually digging the trench so there would be such as an incline - and putting some healthy top soil on the surface and reseed that area.

The only other option - I believe - would be just to put enough soil in that depression to level it off - trying my very best not to allow any of it to actually touch the aluminum siding. However, I must say - in my own defense - that when "they" built this home well over thirty years ago - the builder did not seem to be concerned about that problem - because all along the back of the house the soil is right up to the bottom of the siding.

I do have a digital camera and could easily take a photo of the area, but then I would be faced with trying to figure out how to post it.

No matter, I would appreciate your thoughts concerning this.

[Cmudr1]

I do have a digital camera and could easily take a photo of the area, but then I would be faced with trying to figure out how to post it.

The image part is super easy. Just take the picture, save it on your hard drive or disk or cd whatever. Then you need to reply to your post and right above where you type your message is the "upload an image". You then browse for your image, select it and upload. Next you will "select all" then copy and finally paste it right into your reply message back on the first screen. Not too hard, but if you cant get it just let us know. I definetly think a pic always helps!!!
Chris

[pushkins]

A quick and cheap repair would be to have your "worker" ( I gotta get me one of them...lol) dig a small spoon drain back from the house directing the water around /away from the building. A spoon drain is a simple trench dug usually around 6-12" deep and has soft tapered sides forming a shape similar to a lazy letter "U".
For example the trench may be 8" deep but it is 24" wide.
This way you can reseed the area like you mentioned and still be able to mow the area without a hard sided trench to negotiate.

[Sunshine]

PUSHKINS seems to be seriously engaged in helping members of this community. Cmudr1 responded to tell me how to post a photo - so I will try.

PUSHKINS - I will take this one step further - hoping that you do not feel I am attempting to beat this problem to death. Maybe a photo I had taken yesterday might be helpful - circumstances did limit me to taking only one photo.

Yesterday "we" were experiencing the tail end of a multitude of storms taking place for the past week. Yesterday, at 5:45PM - I became aware that the sump pump (in the cellar) had been "working" overtime.

I went downstairs to check and found two small streams of water coming from that back corner. I thought, this might be a good time to go out to look at that depression area at the back of the house.

That depression area was filled with water, but I was also surprised to see much water dropping down directly from the gutter area. Also a good deal of water was also laying on the ground in back of the house. I went to see what might be coming from those 4" pipes - water was leaving the pipe in the back of the house. However, much more water was leaving the 4" pipe now situated at the front of the house. I also noted the rain water was NOT dropping down excessively from the gutter in front of the house.

I came back in to get the camera - then out to take one photo of that depressed area filled with water and then received the notice "disk full" - damn.

O.K. I came in to get another disk - but by the time I went back out the water in the depressed area had disappeared (I guess we know where) and the heavy rain was no longer dropping down from the gutter in the back.

(I really have to tell you that my "worker" had cleaned out both gutter on 5-20-2006 to remove the seed pods that seem to find their way beneath the gutter guard every year.)

O.K. - I will try to follow Cmudr1's directions -



I apologize if my efforts have gone awry -

Thank you for your patience with me.

[pushkins]

If the water in heavy rain is overflowing the gutters there are only a couple of reasons for why or how this can happen.
1. Clogged downspouts :
Clean them out and flush them with a hose to make sure there is no debris left in them often debris will get caught in the elbows of the downspouts , people clean the gutters but forget the downspouts.

2. Lack of sufficient downspouts to handle heavy downpours:
Add an extra downspout in the run of the gutter, either at the opposite end or in the middle where it is unobtrusive.

3. Low spot in the run of gutter:
Sometimes over time a gutter will start to sag because of water weight and time it's been up there you will need to reattach the gutter with possibly extra gutter brackets to hold it slightly off level (so the water flows to downspouts)

If your gutters are on all sides of your house and are all interconnected and only the rear of the house is overflowing then obviously the rear sections are lower than the front and need to have repairs done of either solution 2 or 3 or both.

You need to have a look at the water flow on the ground while it is raining, if you see obvious water flow at the rear to wards the house you need to dig that "spoon drain" and allow the water an easy path around the house.
Normally you would build up the soil at the house foundation to make it higher than the surrounding area but as per your photo that is impossible to do without inviting extreme major headaches in the very near future, so either a spoon drain or a perimeter drain. A perimeter drain is much more detailed, expensive and needs to be done at the foundation, a spoon drain is a simply a small trench dug back from the house as far as you can, it catches the water flowing down to wards the house and guides it around the dwelling and out of harms way.

I was told many years ago a great statement that I've never forgotten and often repeat
"Quote. You will never beat water, it carves canyons and moves mountains, but if you give it an easy option, it will happily take the easy path. Unquote"
(Thanks Granddad!!)

Thinking of your problem the water wants to get from the top of the mountain to the bottom and your house is in the way, it has get into the basement and then out again before it can continue it's way to the bottom. Dig the spoon drain and it will bypass your house and be on it's merry way to the bottom (and be someone else's problem...

[Sunshine]

PUHKINS - I certainly appreciate the time - patience and effort you have been putting into attempting to resolve my problem. All of your input is duly noted - and I have found it most helpful.

O.K. maybe another photo - since I am now proficient in "posting a photo" - one more might be helpful. I will try now -



Several years ago I had someone, who professed to have worked with underground drains, place a 4" vinyl pipe beneath the ground - leading directly from the house to the lower area - and he placed a stone field with, I believe, six 40# bags of field stone (or rocks) at the end.

So, I played around with that for a few years until one day during a hard rain I went out to check the area and found water spitting out from all the connections at the base of the house. O.K. I would try something else -

This time I asked another "worker" to install the 4" vinyl pipe at a higher than usual position so the water might flow better - believing the 20 feet would take the pipe to that depressed area you (probably) can see in the photo.
Then I braced the 4" pipe with large rocks until I could figure out what to do with that depressed area beneath.

At the end of that 20 foot pipe you might be able to see a depressed area and I wonder if that is what you might be referring to as a "spoon drain"? That depressed area actually extends from the area behind the house, but would not be visible (if I took a photo) because fern and mountain laurel bushes have rather taken up residence there.

New gutters and downspouts were installed in March 1996 - this was/is a continous type of gutter with leaf guards on top. The front and back gutters are completely divorced from each other. I had placed a "expanded aluminum gutter strainer" at the top of each downspout - as an aid in keeping debris from finding its way into the downspouts. This year when my "worker" cleaned the gutters I did ask him to remove those collected seed pods before removing the strainer. I was watching - I do believe he might have removed 90% of the seed pods. But then I have to wonder why (on 6-27-2006) I did not see as much rain water leaving the vinyl pipe in the back of the house as what was leaving the pipe in front of the house???

In August/September 2005 a new roof had been put on the house by, as far as I know, a professional roofing company. I have to wonder if it could be possible that new shingles were placed over the surface of the gutter?

I am expecting my "worker" to be here tomorrow - I will ask him to use the extension ladder to go up to see what he might be able to see concerning the shingles. Maybe a telephone call to the "professional" roofer might be in order???

Your number 2 suggestion might well be worth serious consideration - if that is the case - maybe I will call the company who installed the gutters - to come back to talk with me about that possibility.

Well, I have run out of ideas.
Again, thank you for your most welcome help.

[Sunshine]

O.K. - I've returned to bring my documentation/concerns to date. Since my last posting on/about 6-29-2006 I have been "stewing" about what I might be able to use next to the aluminum siding to protect it from any dirt.

My first thought - maybe cement blocks (that I had here) measuring 2" wide - 8" high and 15" long, but then how would they be secured so dirt did not filter between?

My second thought - maybe glass blocks? Then maybe acrylic blocks - same concern.

On the morning of July 10, 2006 I awoke with the word "Plexiglass" in my mind - maybe that would be available in sheet form? A search on the Internet led me to Lexan (polycarbonate).

I placed a telephone call to the local Home Depot Supply store and spoke with someone in the Millwork section. Yes, they had the Plexiglass and the Lexan in sheets measuring 3' x 6', but they would not be able to cut it for me. He did tell me that they have plastic cutters available. He suggested that I call a local glass company to see if they would provide it - cut it and possibly install it for me. So, I did.

A few days later a man from the glass shop came to my home - in spite of the fact that I had mentioned to him over the telephone that I thought a piece 18" wide would work in that area - he seemed to think he should start with a piece 27" wide, which would then be 24" up against the siding after positioning 3" into the ground beneath. There would be two pieces 60" long to place on either side of the corner of the house. He would then be providing a "corner" to go at the end of the house and would be secured to each piece of the Lexan (my choice) at that corner.

He also presented another problem - he indicated that I should get a piece of maybe rubber roofing material that could be put beneath the Lexan before it is secured to the building. I can envision roofing material being very thicke and perhaps heavy to manage.

I had orginally thought that one piece of the Lexan (1/4" thick) and 3' x 6' cut in half would provide two pieces 18" wide - that when 3" is put into the ground would place 15" inches against the wall. That 1/4" thickness would rest comfortably beneath the lip of the panel of siding.

That 72" inch length could be cut to a comfortable 60" to use against the wall. My problem, if I did that and I do not have the machinery - or whatever - to heat and bend a piece of the remaining material to make a corner allowing 3 1/2" on each side to secure to the Lexan - is there some sort of material available that could be utilized to make that connection - mostly to seal off that corner so rain or whatever would not enter it???

On 6-22-2006 Kactuskid had responded to a problem posed by DKAudio - mentioned "Maintaining a positive slope away from your foundation walls...
Ideally 1" per foot for 6 feet out...then lay down 6 mil plastic...on top of the plastic install decorative stone..."

If you look at the second photo I had posted you can see (based upon the rocks sitting beneath the 4" vinyl pipe) there is a considerable depression existing behind the house and to the right of that area. My thoughts - to fill that depression behind the house with soil - moving toward the right and possibly digging such as a trench further to the right away from the house.
It is highly possible that I would have to dig up that 4" vinyl pipe that had been put there several years ago.

I had thought about putting the soil down - compacting it - then scratching the surface to transplant some of the moss I have available on my property - this is a low lying moss.

My question - should I perhaps consider the advice posed to DKAudio instead?
If so, how doe 6 mil plastic compare to such as the roofing material???

And to update other concerns mentioned in my previous message. My "worker" did get here the evening of 7-10-2006 and I asked him to use the extension ladder to go up to check the shingles on the roof. I had been concerned that maybe the "roofer" had positioned the shingles over the top of the leaf guard.

What he found out - and, in spite of my concern about heights, I went up to verify. The leaf guard was actually solid over to the edge where openings are then provided so that any water falling from the sky and or from the roof has to travel to the edge where it then drops into the gutter.

I can see why - during a hard rain - the excess water MUST drop down over the edge of the gutter (as I had seen, I believe, on 6-28-2006)

Well, that is about all I can report at this time.

[pushkins]

In regards to your "leaf guard" there are many different types out there available. One that I always find is a great leaf guard but a poor water conveyor is a plastic version with little round holes and a mess over the top, the problem with this one is that once you get a heavy downpour the mesh causes a layer of water to develop thus shedding directly off the gutter water in fast drips or in some steep roofs a shower of water.

I will say again, covering up the aluminum with anything be it dirt, cinder blocks , glass blocks, Plexiglas , concrete, wood, vinyl siding or anything else one might imagine is 1. Against code and 2 and most importantly will only act as a slow deterrents to your problem while allowing a much much much bigger problem to develop unseen that most probably will result in the serious issues of structural wood rot. You might think it's dry, but I can guarantee you there will be problems.

You have said nothing about the "spoon drain" I recommended in an earlier post I am at a loss as to why this hasn't been addressed, it is the cheapest option, the safest option and without a doubt, compared to what your suggesting now the most cost effective option both now and in the future with costly structural repairs.

The idea is to stop the water from getting to the foundation thus digging a spoon drain back from the foundation as far as possible, in your approach your giving up on working with the water and allowing it to get to the house before you take any action, that's like trying to catch the bull once it's out.

A perimeter drain would be the best option but it will cost more than a simple spoon drain. A perimeter drain would require the digging out beside the foundation down about 2 feet, coating the foundation with a foundation sealing product, back filling the trench with rock 2" deep, laying in perforated 4" pipe , then filling up the remainder of the trench with rock, this allows water to easily drop into the pipe and be guided away from the rear of the dwelling to a lower area (like in your photo's) and away from trouble.

[Sunshine]

Thank you PUSHKINS for your patience in addressing my concerns.

Since you mentioned the "leaf guard" problem first - let me address that. Once I have the problem at the base of the house resolved I intend to check further into that matter. I will probably place a call to the company that had installed it - should they still be in business. If not - I will contact a local gutter installer (or whatever they are called). Meanwhile, the next time we receive a heavy rain during the daytime - I will go out to see if I can take a photo of the water running down from the gutter along the back of the house.

Next, I honestly did not realize that your caution about NOT putting any dirt/soil/fill over the top of any siding would have included any alternative type of protection. O.K. I can change that.

Next, about the "spoon drain" - I honestly thought that is what I was planning on doing. In fact, this past Monday, July 24th, I had placed several "Help Wanted" postings at various local areas. The posting showed the following photo -

=====================
Well, I did try to place a photo here - either there will be nothing or there will be three - who knows.


======================
No matter, it was a photo taken from the back -showing the area of concern. The posting read: Help Wanted - I need someone to "install" a portion of Lexan on the wall (of the house) and then to build such as a "spoon drain" covering the area directly behind the house and to the left of the area (in the photo) to lead water away."

My thoughts had been that with the Lexan in place a slight bit of dirt could be butted up against the Lexan and to guide the drain toward the left (of that photo) by actually digging what I might refer to as a trench - so that the water travels down the hill away from the house. (In the earlier photo - that trench would be to the right of the photo.) O.K. - so the Lexan is ruled out.

So, as you can see in this new photo - if it is included - the dirt is already up against the lower portion of the house. If the new photo is included - you would see there is a pipe leading from the house leading to the septic tank.
My thoughts - the area to the right of that pipe should be leveled completely - then any activity relating to the spoon drain or trench would have to start to the left of that pipe.

I had found that the 6 mil plastic/vinyl is available in 10' x 25' rolls. My thoughts had been that once that trench or whatever is dug - so that it tapers to a lower level - to place the 6 mil plastic/vinyl over the area dug - placing a healthy amount of stone on top of the plastic/vinyl -then the top soil and finally transplanting the moss.

Or would it be better to prepare the incline - then put a layer to top soil in place - tapped down and then the moss placed on top?

Again, I do appreciate your guidance in this matter - too bad you don't live closer.



-

[pushkins]

You only need look at your local highway to see a spoon drain in use, At the center medium strip both roads drain into the center (for the most) at this point they grade a channel to guide the water to the nearest drain and away from the highway.

A simple drain would be 12" wide and 6" deep with curved sides (like a lazy U shape) let the grass regrow over this area and just mow like normal if needed with the rest of the lawn. It's a simple yet very effective way to re route water around a problem and give it an easy option around your house.

This I feel from what you have been posting will solve 99 % of your problems, then all you will need tackle is the gutter situation.