Wall switch and shower...

[mrcaptainbob]

Circuit....

The powers-that-be gave it his blessing. It was far enough from plumbing to not be an issue. As it turns out, even the sink across the room is closer to those light switches than the tub/shower plumbing! But, all is good now, and the rat can rest in peace!

[dfitz3390]

not to keep killing the same rat here but wouldnt the issue be solved with a gfci breaker on that circuit ?

[HayZee518]

Bob,
I feel we are killing a dead rat here. Have your son call your building services and ask the proper authority. After all, I'm assuming you put in for a building permit before you started this project. The powers to be will have the last word. Then if you want to pursue the validity of the claim, go for it! - Hayzee

[mrcaptainbob]

Wall switch to shower....

Hmmm....not to possibly complicate things further: The actual shower stuff, that is handles, faucets, etc. is on the far wall end of the tub. That switch is on the wall opposite. And is now about an actual 24" from the vertical plane of the tub exterior.

[HayZee518]

Lazypup, there was one inspector in Northampton, John Pacorek that said no receptacles -or- switches within reach of a walk in shower or bathtub converted to a shower. Ed Marchefka before he died [from Greenfield] said the same thing. When you think of it, water and electricity don't mix.

[LazyPup]

I asked our inspector and he says if you cannot achieve a 6ft separation from the switch to the shower you have to put the switch on the outside beside the door so you can turn it on as you enter.

[HayZee518]

There was a time where I would wire a house with a combination of cables - #14 and #12, but it came the norm to wire everything with #12 and fuse it accordingly. If in the future a cable fed off a 15 amp breaker and being #12 could be upgraded to a 20 amp breaker without causing problems down the line. Normally when using #14 I would wire the smoke detectors on a 14 and general lighting. #1 its easier to work with, fits easily into a box, smaller wirenuts can be used. AND given wire diameter, the box fill calculation is more than with #12.

[mrcaptainbob]

Wire size change....

It was an existing condition, HayZee. In fact, that 14 to 12 wire fed to a hidden junction box, then continued on to a wall plug that fed the other side of the wall. It was all replaced and that hidden junction was removed, too. I wouldn't have minded if it was from 12 down to 14, but this is just one of many, many electrical issues we found in his house. In fact, it's a running argument about which of us have the house with most challenges. Considering mine is almost 150 years old, I still have to say that Son's is the winner. My previous owner(s) left some to be desired, but the po of my son's house went beyond his calling in ineptness.

[HayZee518]

Bob,
You got me stumped on something you said. [electrical] go from 14 to 12 to the outlet? why would you change wire gauges to an outlet? If the circuit feeding the outlet was 14 keep the same and wire the outlet with 14.

[Mark45439]

Electrical installations deal everyday with the inspectors. simple fact, don't listen to the inspectors, job doesn't get approved. No O.C. issued. You're stuck!
You want to argue the point, take the inspector to court and get the NFPA to back you up.
Meanwhile there sits your house, no approval, no O.C.

Yes, understood and not oblivious at all to this fact, nor to the likely fact of the inspector's honestly good intentions with regard to most requests. Nevertheless, whenever circumstances exist that allow one to have absolute clarification of authority, particularly if the decision is a critical one - one step or six steps to the switch, e.g. - then one ought to take advantage of those circumstances and require such clarification.

Heh, that "holding up everything," is definitely always the trump card, and they know this, so if one has the time....yes, and for more reasons than winning, too.

[mrcaptainbob]

Switch update....

Well, the way we worked around it was to ...uh....rebuild the bathroom. The switch issue was at my son's house. There were many other issues that needed to be dealt with, so they chose to take it all down to the studs. The ceiling and floor covering were removed, as well. That was the opportunity to correct all the 'issues' from the previous owner, that switch being one of them. Plumbing (negative slope for sink drain inside wall cavity), structure (many, MANY missing wall studs!) and heat system (there was none) were others. Another one of the electrical issues was going from 14 to 12 to the outlet. No ground on some of the outlets. Not to mention aesthetics. It's all good now! Thanks for the help along the way....

[pushkins]

I have to agree, I was once of the thought that "law is law" and "code is code" and unless someone could show me where the code specifically said it couldn't be done I was prepared to stand toe to toe and argue the point, problem is no matter how right I might have been, my clients want to live in their house or addition or renovation and without the inspectors approval they don't get the right to do so.
Having said that I have argued a point with an inspector from time to time where for whatever reason their judgement was simply wrong ( I learned that tact was a necessity early on ) and I have asked for a senior inspector to come out for a second ruling.
On top of applicable codes in the NEC or IRC for that matter, states and counties often adopt different versions, that is why it's always good advice to call "your local authority" as was previously mentioned.

[HayZee518]

Electrical installations deal everyday with the inspectors. simple fact, don't listen to the inspectors, job doesn't get approved. No O.C. issued. You're stuck!
You want to argue the point, take the inspector to court and get the NFPA to back you up.
Meanwhile there sits your house, no approval, no O.C.

[Mark45439]

Excuse me, who said so?

I have to say I'm astounded by the "whatever they say" attitude with regard to these questions. If they do "say so," then I would insist they cite the authority upon which they rely to say so: something either is or is not permitted - whether that something is or is not permitted should be relying upon accessible written code or regulations to the same effect, not just because someone "says so."

I would hate to think of our entire legal system relying upon what someone "says," and neither should anyone tolerate it. Safety is fine, but law is law, and written and published rules and regulations are generally equal to the law. An opinion, however, no matter how dearly held, or carefully considered, or well meant, is not the same, and ought not be accepted as the same.

From everything I can gather from the NEC, 2011 version, the rules with regard to switches and showers are limited to Section 404.4(C), and to this language therein: "[s]witches shall not be installed within tubs or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly."

Admittedly, for all the importance inspectors and others seem to give to this consideration, nowhere else in that code, which they were generally free to write as they saw fit, is found a clear and concise definition of what the language "shower space" actually means.

If one were to try to use what language CAN be found in the NEC with regard to "shower space," to try to make an interpretation of what exactly is meant by it, one is generally limited to relying upon 406.9(C), which, although addressing receptacles, "prohibits the installation of receptacles inside bathtub and shower spaces or above their footprint." Obviously, this section is defining the shower space, at least for the purpose of receptacles, as that area within the footprint and/or directly above it.

Therefore, if the NEC is going to permit the installation of receptacles right up to the edge of this space, then I would be very hard put to accept an argument that posited more stringent rules than this for switches. In conclusion, if an official is not going to bring something written to back up an opinion or regulation or requirement contrary to this apparent interpretation, then they are going to be challenged - if for no other reason than to see more clearly stated rules (but perhaps they already are as clear as I see them) with regard to switches and shower spaces.

This is my argument, and if you can unequivocally disprove it with written code, then I am delighted, for then my job is simple and clear.

[HayZee518]

I know that you are in Michigan. Call a local electrical inspector in your jurisdiction and see what he says.