Rat's Nest.....

[mrcaptainbob]

Here's some of what I've been running across in this old house. (c. 1860).



I'd like to say thanks to all the people who come to a forum like this that may not be sure of what to do, but are willing to ask first.

[mrcaptainbob]

Well, that didn't come out near to what I expected! Sorry.

[LightnBolt]

Don't feel alone , I come across the same thing quite often.

Zips_LightnBolt

[mrcaptainbob]

I've learned a big lesson in this house. Always carry a voltmeter! Two instances where the socket was hot with the switch off! Another that has to be cared for soon is the indoor, 14/2wg that's buried the required 4" deep to the well pump! Got a poke from that late last fall. Through the jacket! Not doing this for a living limits my exposure to the horror stories you pro's must have. But, again, I am pleased that there are people who aren't familiar with the various home improvement issues that are searching boards like this for the right direction.

[kactuskid]

It's hard for me to tell from your picture, but is that knob and tube wiring? If it is you may want to consider replacing it if you are gonna have any modern day electrical needs. Most of that stuff is very brittle and circuit extensions are not allowed. Here's a link to show: http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/10327.shtml

Also, never-ever depend on a wall switch to isolate the power from a fixture. Especailly in older homes, the power can come into a circuit from the ceiling fixture first and then down to the wall switch, so turning off the wall switch does not isolate the power from the light fixture. Always open the breaker before working on a circuit.

Just thought I'd throw in my 2cents, hope this helps [8D]

quote:Originally posted by mrcaptainbob

I've learned a big lesson in this house. Always carry a voltmeter! Two instances where the socket was hot with the switch off! Another that has to be cared for soon is the indoor, 14/2wg that's buried the required 4" deep to the well pump! Got a poke from that late last fall. Through the jacket! Not doing this for a living limits my exposure to the horror stories you pro's must have. But, again, I am pleased that there are people who aren't familiar with the various home improvement issues that are searching boards like this for the right direction.

[jackofall]

A lot of older homes, the switches are backfed (only 1 wire). I have 3 - 4 different things to tell if power present and still manage to zap myself I guess its not a good day if I don't. I have learned to move quickly. As for your wall (w/out being there to see inside the wall) I'd think about maybe adding an outlet so you don't have exposed wire inside of it.

[mrcaptainbob]

Well, Jack, to answer you and Kactus, I took the 'nest' apart, tied new wire to one of the older ones and backthreaded it through the wall to an outlet about 4' down. With new wire (now longer to work with!) I was able to move that box over a bit to a new, better sized hole. All ends will be enclosed in that box. It also seems there was a need to minimize how much wire was used in this place. So far all switches and outlets can hardly be pulled from the box. Very difficult to access the contact screws. It's as if the wire was drawn up tight after the outlet was installed. Several wires added end to end (no wire nuts/junction box black tape only) to make it long enough...things like that. Scary situation. I have taken care of most of what I've run across so far. But the aspect has changed from one of just changing a few outlets and light recepticles to one of actually hunting for more black tape issues. I feel a need now to inspect every length of wire in each wall, as I no longer trust any of the elctrical.

[kactuskid]

I don't mean to alarm you or anything, but there can be some serious issues with your wiring if the remodleing aspects aren't done properly. It looks to me like you have old knob and tube wiring. It would be helpful if you could look up in the attic to verify this. It should look like this: http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/know...098-12,00.html If the wiring is instead run in a flex armored cable then you have BX and the possibility of a ground in the system. But if it's knob and tube then you have no ground and that means you are not allowed to add on or extend any circuit that doesn't have a ground. This also means that all receptacles that you replace must be either 2 prong recpetacles or GFCI receptacles, no 3 prong are allowed and could be dangerous. Here is a link that'll guide you in determining whether or not you have a grounded system and can replace any plugs with a 3 prong type. http://www.codecheck.com/250_50_commentary.html


Those connections that you mention that have the tape around them and no wire nut are actually soldered connections, that's what they did years ago before wirenuts existed and those old cloth covered wires can become very brittle and the insulation can actually crumble and fall off of them. Instead of removing the soldered connections to get more lenght so you can remove and replace receptacles and switches, there is a devise called IN SURE, they are sold at Home Depot in multipacks. You just push the end of your old wire into one port and push a new piece of same gauge wire into an adjacent port. This allows you to extend these wires without having to use a wirenut, works great when the wires are so short as yours are. Here's a link to show you what they look like:

http://www.goodmart.com/products/electrical_supplies_wire_termination_push_in_connector.htm

If I were you I would consider replacing entire circuits if you have the knob and tube so that you can update your receptacles and so you can add more considering that we use much more appliances than years back. Here's one more link to give you some details on doing this.

http://www.electrical-online.com/howtoarticles/rewiringanolderhome.htx

[mrcaptainbob]

That's some good info there, Kactus. Thanks. It's definately not knob and tube. Unfortunately, the pic is a bit cloudy to show, but that is jacketed 14/2 w/g coming out of the box and out of the wall. I've been through the three attics and have verified that there's nothing that bad. So far it appears that this typ of work is relegated to where a former owner had an ease of reah. Too much effort wasn't part of his plan. So it looks like it's kept to where the poor drywall add-ons are. The whole job is going to require my changing over an updated breaker panel, and rewiring everything from that. Not an easy job, but one I'd feel more comfortable sleeping with. There's a few circuits with too many outlets on one wire. Then the issue of stacked wires on a breaker tab. Many things to take care of. Again, thanks for the cautions and the help.

[kactuskid]

Yes, older homes can be alot of work if the previous owner took shortcuts, Good luck to you.

[jackofall]

You don't necessarily have to update your panel and all homeruns if you feel the panel is adaquate to your needs, you can do 1 of 2 things because replacing a panel requires a permit!
1. You can run a sub-panel for the things that definitely need updating and that allows you to leave the range, wash/dry, HVAC, wires and breakers alone if your not moving them.

2. You can use a junction box that is accessable in the attic (close to the scuttle hole access but about 7-8 feet away to meet code issues). This allows you to do about the same as above without having to add a sub panel and feeders (larger wire for load) which keeps a few $$$ in your pocket. If you decide to go this way, decide what you want to add/move, write down & count the # of each size wire you need in this junction box, then go to home depot (or local hardware) store and ask for the proper size j-box for the amount of wires you need. Then go a little bigger just in case you may add more later.