Barn Power, Water

[Kidd6488]

Hi, we are in the process or running 4" non-perforated field tile out to our barn, about 120' from the edge of our house. The tile goes thru the crawlspace up to the attached garage; total distance is about 150'. Is it ok that we run our power, (probably 4/3 Al, twisted type), 1" water line, and a couple sheiled cat5's out to the barn thru that tile? My dad was concerned about the slight jerking water lines make when opened/closed. Does this sound ok? I've been told that NEC does not apply in this county...

Anyways

Thanks,

~Jonathon Reinhart

[Hube]

Water and electrical in the SAME conduit (housing)?.... NEVER!

[mrcaptainbob]

Hi, Kidd.
The story you were handed about NEC not applying in this country is a song-and-dance. NEC stands for National Electrical Code. Here's a site about some books:

http://www.constructionbook.com/xq/ASP/electrical-codes/ID.370/qx/default2.htm

[mrcaptainbob]

I'm not sure about threading the cat5 alongside of the power line either. THere could be a lot of interference of the field around the power line that could upset the smaller cable's transmitting correctly.

[Kidd6488]

quote:Originally posted by mrcaptainbob

Hi, Kidd.
The story you were handed about NEC not applying in this country is a song-and-dance. NEC stands for National Electrical Code. Here's a site about some books:

http://www.constructionbook.com/xq/ASP/electrical-codes/ID.370/qx/default2.htm

County not Country... lol
and also, I have some cat5 with a foil shield.. its STP instead of UTP

~Jonathon Reinhart

[HayZee518]

NEVER RUN ELECTRIC WITHIN THE SAME PIPE AS WATER!!!!
You got to be crazy to do this. Jeez!

[Kidd6488]

Why would that be crazier than direct burrying them right beside each other? I think this would be even safer than that, as the 4" tile would protect them. Wouldn't the bare earth provide more of a potential for damage the water/electric lines? Plus, they run a 1" water line and twiseted 12/3 down a well, WHERE THE POWER LINES ARE SUBMERGED! How can this be much worse than that?

~Jonathon Reinhart

[Kidd6488]

Why would that be crazier than direct burrying them right beside each other? I think this would be even safer than that, as the 4" tile would protect them. Wouldn't the bare earth provide more of a potential for damage the water/electric lines? Plus, they run a 1" water line and twiseted 12/3 down a well, WHERE THE POWER LINES ARE SUBMERGED! How can this be much worse than that?

~Jonathon Reinhart

[Rewired]

Actually about a year ago, I did something similar to this when I wired a garage for an engine builder I know. He had a 4" pipe between his house and new detached garage, in which I ran one 1", one 3/4" and one 1/2" pvc conduit through to provide power, a separate "lighting" circuit from the house, and low voltage alarm wiring, cable T.V and a telephone line. Within that same "raceway" the HVAC installer ran a gas line. and to top it all off, the owner had put in both a water line and an air hose!!!
The electrical inspector didn't have a problem, as all wiring was in individual conduits, gas company didnt care, as the pipe was not copper but heavy black iron, and the building inspector approved the whole thing, but just made sure the ends were plugged to prevent fumes from the garage from getting inside the house.

The garage passed inspection(s) with FLYING COLOURS as well!!!!

A.D

[Kidd6488]

Sounds good. I thought HAYZEE up there was gonna pick a fight or something... We haven't had an electrical inspection here in the 16 years we've lived here. How about using direct burial wire? That stuff's tough and I wouldn't feel bad about running it...

On a side note, does anyone know if they make 4-4-4 in a jacket? We can't find it anywhere. All three have to be insulated as our service has separate nuetral/eq. grnd. wiring. Also, we wouldn't have to run an EGC out to our barn would we? Just run Hot-Hot-Nuetral, and drive a ground rod out at the barn's panel.

~Jonathon Reinhart

[LazyPup]

I see a whole list of problems with this idea.

1. water and electric should never be run in the same chase.

2. whenever a wire is burried it must be either a cable listed for direct burial or run in an approved conduit. You will note that plastic electrical conduits are gray so as not to be confused with water lines during future excavation. (i get shivers thinking that a backhoe operator in future might hit that line, thinking it a field drain or unused irrigation line and cut through the electrical cable.)

3.while aluminum conductors may be code approved in your locality, in my opinion the only time aluminum should be present on an electrical job is as a soft drink container.

4. i would also have reservation with running 120/250v supply in the same enclosure as low voltage signal services.

[Kidd6488]

They already cut through our original direct burried line to the barn when they dug this time... No problem, the power was off, as any responsible home owner would do when digging.

Ok, Would it please you all to run the power line it conduit inside the 4" tile? What kind would you recommend? Do they make ENT large enough for 4-4-4 or 2-2-2? We don't want to spend a ton of money on this...

~Jonathon Reinhart

[Rewired]

Another way to run your power out to the barn is you can use something called "DB-II" duct. Its meant for electrical services and resembles thinwall sewer pipe. Sizes are from 2"-4" and is a lot cheaper than regular PVC conduit. But like mentioned before it IS thinner and more fragile, so it should be buried deep. What we are required to do up in my area is to bury it 24"- 36" in the earth ( I think don't quote me) In that trench about a foot below or whatever they place in a yellow or red plastic tape that says "CAUTION BURIED ELECTRIC LINE" or "CAUTION BURIED HIGH VOLTAGE LINE"... This plastic "tape" is very similar if not the same as that barricade tape that the cops or fire department uses to zone off areas, only this stuff is meant to get stuck in the ground. HOPEFULLY if anyone is doing digging they hit that first, see it and stop digging "full tilt" without being aware of whats buried in the ground...

As for the kind of cable you can use, I don't think they make a "direct burial" cable in a size "4/3" or "2/3" (2 hots, a neutral but with a ground (not counted). I could be wrong but when I used to work for the electrical supplier I don't remember it ever being listed in any manufacturers price book. You COULD use #2 "USEI-90" which is a direct burial type wire, meant for services, that contains 2-hots, one neutral and thats it, I think you mentioned you wanted to use that before to feed the barn.. That will work ok, its cheaper but it IS aluminum, and I agree with what Lazypup said about what aluminum should be present on an electrical job!!
The only other option is you could pull in individual "TW" "TWU", "RW" or "RWU" type insulated wires into the DB-II duct in whatever size and number of conductors you want, depending on how you are going to ground the installation. Do NOT run anything else within this duct. you will need another run between the house and barn to carry your lower voltage wiring (cat-5, cable TV, whatever).



One other note, if you do use DB-II duct, you can get large sweep bends in 24" and 36" radius, depending on how deep you are going to be in the ground, BUT it can't be exposed above grade, you will have to use adapters and go to regular rigid PVC wherever the conduit will be above the grade...

Hope this helps yo a bit.

A.D