A collection of issues

[Max]

quote:Originally posted by mrcaptainbob

Boy! It seems more to me now that that just may have been a 3 way switch setup and somebody changed things around a bit. Don't understand why there'd be a need to jumper a wire from the right switch to the left and then to the bottom wire feed. That switch for all intents and purposes is useless. I wonder what that black lead is? Do you know if it's hot?

OK, I checked the taped up wire. It's black and it's not hot. I checked the switches, both are "single" switches which means they only have 2 screws (plus one for the grounding wire). I don't know what the correct term for that kind of switch is. What's weird is that there is a single 2-core wire (white + black) and a single 3-core wire (black, red + white) yet there doesn't appear to be any 3-way switches. Something has definitely been moved around. On closer examination of the un-attached switch I can see that the black wire was unceremoniously cut off leaving a small, bare copper wire sticking out the back of it - it's about 1mm long but I'm sure it's still not code.

[LazyPup]

I have enlarged the image for better inspection. It appears that there are two AWG 12/3 WG NM-B cables and one AWG 12/2 wg NM-B cables entering the box from the top.

There is another AWG 12/2 WG NM-B cable entering from the bottom.

I suspect the cable entering from the bottom should be the source cable from the breaker box.

The two 12/3 cables are 3 way switch travelers from this box to the boxes in the garage area for the garage and outside lites.

The 12/2 cable on the right is a single pole switch for the lights in this immediate room.

This can be confirmed by checking the switches in the garage area to see if the 3 conductor cables come through.

The switch on the far left of the picture is a 3 way, the other two are single pole switches. I suspect someone has mistakenly replaced the original 3 way in the center postition with a single pole switch.

[Max]

Thanks for taking the time to look at this LP. Here are some comments on your comments.

quote:There is another AWG 12/2 WG NM-B cable entering from the bottom.
I suspect the cable entering from the bottom should be the source cable from the breaker box.

In theory, if this was the source cable then disconnecting it (or switching off it's associated breaker) should render all the switched appliances beyond it off. In other words, the entrance way light, the door light and the outside spot lamps should all be tripped by the same breaker. I will do what I can to check that out.

quote:The two 12/3 cables are 3 way switch travelers from this box to the boxes in the garage area for the garage and outside lites.

In practice the left hand 3-way switch controls the entrance way light. There are two switches in the entrance way, one by the front door and one by the kitchen and both of them toggle the entrance way light. That's not to say that that's how it has always been though.

quote:The 12/2 cable on the right is a single pole switch for the lights in this immediate room.

This switch actually powers the door light (outside but different from the spot lamps). Again, that just how it is now, not necessarily how it has always been.

As MCB said above, it might be prudent to rip out all the switches and check to see what is what.

If I may I would like to list some assumptions that I am making, perhaps you guys can yae or nae them?

1. white wires (neutral or return) should always be connected to other white wires.

2. white wires are not usually attached to switches.

3. black / red (hot) wires are connected to switches.

Let me ask another question which may not have a single answer.

Q. A switch box that has a single 12/2 and a single 12/3 wire coming into it could theoretically be used to connect....? In my instance, in the garage, I have two single pole switches. Unless I am mistaken, and this is what I am trying to figure out, the cables coming into this box are not "designed" to support two single pole switches.

A single 3-way switch requires:
1. a 12/2 source from box OR a 12/2 feed to the light (or other appliance)
2. a 12/3 between it and the other switch

Right now my inside garage switch is connected to the 12/3 wire and that doesn't make any sense, there is only one switch that could / would be used to switch on the garage light. That made me think that perhaps there was a 3-way switch setup to control the outside lights and a single pole switch to control the garage light but the wiring inside the switch box doesn't appear to support that configuration either. That's why I asked the question above. If I can understand what a single 12/2 and a single 12/3 can support then I have a better chance of understanding what should be going on.

Thanks again for the help and if any of you live in Mass (Westford area) then let me know, I would be happy for you to come over and see this first hand. ;-P

[Max]

OH, I just found this picture on a site, it appears that you CAN connect a white wire to a black wire. I guess I was wrong.

http://www.handymanwire.com/articles/3wayswitch.html

[Kidd6488]

Assumptions 1 and 2 are incorrect, for the most part. The NEC states that grounded (neutral) conductors must be gray or white, or have three white stripes on them, and white may only be used for grounded (neutral) conductors.

That said, many people do not take the time to re-identify white wires if they are not being used as a neutral.

Sometimes a light switch is wired like this:

In that case, the white wire coming back from the switch is the switched hot, and should be re-colored blue or red or something, in both boxes, but often is not.

In the most popular 3-way setup, white is never used as anything but a neutral:


But there is an alternate 3-way setup (where the 3-wire cables meet at the light fixture):

In this case, white wire 1 is used for supplying the neutral to the light, while white wire 2 is the switched hot wire coming back from the second switch. White wire 2 should be re-colored blue or something in both boxes, but often isn't. I can't tell if this is the way it is in your box or not, but thought I would explain these situations to you.

Good luck,

~Jonathon Reinhart

[LazyPup]

If the switch box has both a 12/2 and 12/3 cable i would suspect it is a 3 way switch location..the 12/2 is either source or load, and the 12/3 is the traveler to the mating 3 way switch.

[Kidd6488]

oh, I missed replying to your part about "supporting". In general, 12-2 is used for single-pole (regular) switch systems, and 12-3 is used for 3-way switch systems.

However, wire is wire, and you can use it for whatever you want. For example, you could use a 12-3 to control two lights from two single-pole switches like this:


And I suppose if there is already a neutral in a fixture, you could find a way to use 12-2 for a three-way switch's travelers (very uncommon).

~Jonathon Reinhart

[Max]

Thanks guys.

Kidd, your last diagram could very well explain what I have in my garage, it looks the same.

[Kidd6488]

What you can do is, take the first (or all) the light fistures in your garage apart and see what you find. If you find something like light #1, where the red wire and neutral continue, and the black stops there (or vice-versa), you do have that situation. Especially since there are only two cables in that garage box.

I don't think it would hurt anything to re-connect that wire to the switch, and see what works. Just dont touch anything; I suppose if it touches ground, what's the worst that could happen, a kicked out breaker? I doubt there's a wire cut off in the wall anywhere that could start a fire, but what does everyone else think?

Also to help you some more, It would be beneficial to know which cable in the inside rats nest is the feed.

~Jonathon Reinhart

[HayZee518]

Two screws plus a ground are single pole switches. 2-core is 12 or 14/2 romex, 3-core is 12 or 14/3 romex. The hot connection to a switch usually is on the top screw and the load comes off the bottom screw. Ways of connecting the hot can be from two blacks wire nutted to a third wire, each feeding one switch - or - a long piece of romex skinned back partially and looped around the screw on the first switch then skinned back again and fastened around the screw on the second switch. The loads still come off the bottom. As far as the taped wire - anybody's guess.

[mrcaptainbob]

"On closer examination of the un-attached switch I can see that the black wire was unceremoniously cut off leaving a small, bare copper wire sticking out the back of it - it's about 1mm long but I'm sure it's still not code."
Often times, while removing the insulation, the copper is nicked. That nick greatly weakens the wire. While setting the switch or recepticle into the box, that wire will start taking a shape to fit and will bend at the easiest place it finds. Usually at that nick. I'm wondering if that black wire was at one time part of that mm piece sticking out...

[Max]

I am confident that the taped wire and the 1mm piece are one in the same, I just don't know why it's now in two distinct pieces. If the wire was flapping around without the insulation then I could believe that perhaps the wire just broke as you suggest. I think the fact that it's taped up means one of two things:
1. it was cut on purpose and then taped up,
2. it broke and someone looked inside the box, thought "Oh boy, what do I do?" and just taped it up to be safe without being that concerned that whatever was controlled by the switch is no longer under control. The "proper" thing to do would have been to just connect it back up again but since I don't know the circumstances surrounding this box I can't say for sure.

[Kidd6488]

Don't know how it's going, but here's what I can say. I'm pretty confident that this problem in the garage, and the problem in the foyer (or wherever it was) are two separate things.

I'd say lets get the box in the garage done. If its a double box, that means it was intended to have two switches (probably), and their associated wire. If the garage light works, We can assume, (and you can check) that the bottom 12-2 is the hot feed, and the 12-3 goin out is to the garage light.

So, take your garage light box apart, and look at the wires in there. Hopefully you should see that 12-3 coming in, with your light hooked up to the red, if i remember properly. then there should be, another cable, probably a 12-2 going out. I would assume that wire is going to the other garage device you mentioned that did not work, I think outside or something. I'd take that apart too, and then when you can see that no wires are touching anything, hook that switch's wire back up (use the screw, not the back-stabber), and check for power at those outside lights and stuff.

i would take both your garage light box, and that other device's box open, and tell me what you see. I think this one will be an easy fix.

~Jonathon Reinhart

[Max]

The mystery is over............well, another part of it at least.

I have been looking into wiring up an outside receptacle for the front of the house for decorative lights, etc. and I want to attach it to a switch so that whatever is outside can be switched on / off from inside the house. I also want this switch to be somewhere accessible i.e. I don't want the wife having to go down to the basement to switch on the outside lighting arrangement. As luck should have it there is already an indoor receptacle attached to the basement ceiling near where I would want to run the new wire. I thought it would be convenient to use the existing wiring path for this receptacle to run the new wire so I don't need to drill more holes. Well, I pulled out the insulation and saw that this existing receptacle's wire comes down through the celiing from upstairs (the entrance way). Right now there is only one thing using the receptacle and that's the water softener. No, never, could it be? Really? Yup. The mystery switch from the post above that is taped in the ON position is used to power the receptacle in the based that supplies power to our water softener. At least that explains why it is in the on position all the time. Also, by the receptacle in the basement, written in pencil on the runner it's attached to are the 2 words "post lite". For some reason someone has decided to wire up a receptacle in the basement that is powered from the entranceway upstairs and that is now being used for the water softener.

Here is what I propose doing...

1. plug the water softener into a more appropriate outlet in the basement (I alread have one in mind)
2. replace the receptacle in the basement with a junciton box and extend the wire through the front of the house and add GFCI receptacle outsite. This means that we would have a light switch by the door that powers the outside lights. I suspect that the "mystery" switch from above was part of a 3-way switch circuit and it's partner is the disconnected light switch in the garage. Again, for some reason someone has replaced an outside light circuit with a basement receptacle. Weird but I think I finally got it all worked out.

[Mr_Fixit_eh]

I'm not sure where you are located, but in Canada the code doesn't want outside plugs to share a circuit with indoor loads.

Mr Fixit eh!