Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

[Stayouttadabunker]

Whew!
If it takes anywhere what I took OUT last night, I'll be needing
about 40 gallons of antifreeze to get a 50/50 mixture ratio! lol
I'm going to Wallmart's and clear out their shelves...LOL
I'll update tomorrow on what happens...Thanks guys!

[HayZee518]

another way is to get a submersible sump pump with a garden hose outlet fitting and hitch it up to one line. use some extra garden hose and hitch it up to the other line and train the other hose into a five gallon bucket. mix up your cleaner in the bucket and turn on the pump. it is self priming. it'll force the liquid mixture into your lines and will keep circulating it through the loop as long as it is running. good stuff into the pump, return back to the bucket etc. when you are sure the lines are clear, remove the pump and use a garden hose to flush the system. now clean out the bucket and use the rv anti-freeze and use the pump to fill the slab's loop. just keep adding the anti-freeze to the bucket until the return is anti-freeze and shut off the pump. plug the ends and hitch up your water heater to the lines. at this point you'll have very little to add to the system because the loop will already be filled with the glycol mix. the thermostat will need to be turned up because the bulb is sensing room air temperature and needs to be increased to similate the need for heat.

[paul52446m]

» Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

I haven't figured out how to get the rust flush chemicals INTO the system.
Maybe I better see how they flush car radiators and try a kit.

The bedroom is nice and warm right now as I left the heater on all day.
I will shut down again and try adding rust remover.
There were no elements on.
Does that mean the stat turned them off?
I think it does because the bottom element is on when I turned up the stat to about 80 degrees.
I put a multimeter back on the top element - still "OFF",
But now the bottom element is "ON" !!!

Sounds like it's working correctly right?
I will fine tune this system later on by moving everything closer to the slabs so that way the water heater is not just heating up excessive lines.
I also want to install a new automatic air vent valve ( made by Vent-Rite) and give the old one a good cleaning and inspection.

For what its worth , shut off valve under pump , shut off return valve going into heater. Drain about 1 gal. of water from bottom of heater, unscrew temp gauge, use funnel and put cleaner in and fill up with water as much as you can so you don't get much air in system. Re install temp gauge and open valves. paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

I haven't figured out how to get the rust flush chemicals INTO the system.
Maybe I better see how they flush car radiators and try a kit.

The bedroom is nice and warm right now as I left the heater on all day.
I will shut down again and try adding rust remover.
There were no elements on.
Does that mean the stat turned them off?
I think it does because the bottom element is on when I turned up the stat to about 80 degrees.
I put a multimeter back on the top element - still "OFF",
But now the bottom element is "ON" !!!

Sounds like it's working correctly right?
I will fine tune this system later on by moving everything closer to the slabs so that way the water heater is not just heating up excessive lines.
I also want to install a new automatic air vent valve ( made by Vent-Rite) and give the old one a good cleaning and inspection.

[HayZee518]

use regular radiator flush chemical from autozone or advance auto. get the cheapest stuff you can find. run it back and forth until the return water is pretty clear.

[Stayouttadabunker]

WOW!
As I disconnected the slab in/out lines from the old system to swap with water heater lines - the Bedroom slabs are full of iron rust!
The water was as brown as the website buttons here!
I had to power flush out roughly 40 gallons of rusty water before it got almost clear.
I think I emptied about eight 5-gallon pails of rusty water!
I wish I didn't run all that water through the hot water tank because some of the sediment surely must remain in the tank now...arghhh!!!

Can I add some sort of rust dissolve to help clear the slab lines of what is probably 25 years of iron water coating the insides of the pipe walls in the slab lines?

I don't want to blow up the water heater when I power up the elements!!!

[Stayouttadabunker]

First of all, this slabs heat loss is the ground under it, so it has nothing to do with out side temp, so do away with it*.
(* the Outdoor Lockout Thermostat)
I agree with you on this - HayZee removed the outdoor temperature lockout thermostat.

Leave the slab stat where it is at on the out going line.
That was removed from the out-going line and placed on the return line.


Right now it is a guessing game on where to set the elements in the heater.
but i would not go any higher then 120 for now. We don't want to crack the slab.
The two element temperature adjustments are set at 110 degrees.
Right now it's not cold enough to crack the slab, and the slabs
are at above ground temperatures.
There is vapor barrier and some blue looks like bubble wrap
sort of insulation underneath them.
I was told the wire mesh was installed with the slab as well
as aluminum heat dispersers?
The wire was supposed to do two things - help strengthen the concrete
and help disperse heat.
I believe the aluminum was for helping spread the heating
more evenly throughout the concrete...I could be wrong on this.



We are going to have to power purge the system to get the air out of it.
No. We are not.
I told you that there was no air coming out of the drain pipe or the bleeder
and that I had a steady stream of Glycol mixture.


You should replace that auto bleeder.
No. It is working fine. There is no air in the lines.
That would be a waste of money don't you think?


you should take the expansion tank off and put a 1/4 turn ball valve between the tank and where it ties in, this way you can change or service the tank with out draining the system. this is done so you don't lose your antifreeze.
I totally agree with you on this as just about any plumbing system should be set up that way to change out components as easily as possible.

I have a large boiler license that goes up to hi pressure steam and water, and i have been doing this for over 40 years.
Cool! That's a long time!

Here's an update...HAyZee came over this morning and removed
the outdoor lockout thermostat and had me remove the "Slab"
thermostat bulb sensor as well.
It is now attached to the ingoing line to the Lowboy.

HayZee checked all the wiring out with his tools
and we re-installed the circulator pump.
We then powered up the system while HayZee pointed out that the main
double breakers are of 30A rating running to the water heater panel box.

I worked on a few other things during the day and went out
and played 18 holes of golf at my local course.
When I got home at dark, I went downstairs to check the pipes for heat.
We have heat !!! Plenty of it!!

There's only one little problem though...the Dog Kennel is nice
and toasty warm! LOLOLOL!!!! LMAO!!!
The two pipes were hidden very well in the walls and I had thought
that these pipes were going out to the Sun Room slab manifold -
well they certainly are not...haha!
They are running inside the walls, and 9 ft underground below
the frost line out to the dog kennels.
Like I said...the dog kennel's floor is toasty warm and comfy.

Next move...I shut down and swap lines from the kennel to the Sun Room....LOL

I want to thank you Paul and HayZee for helping me out with this.
You guys are awessome!!!

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

A little history...
When the home was built in 1986, it was zoned 4 ways.
Zone 1] Sun room & Kitchen/Dining slab
Zone 2] Bathroom & bedroom slab
Zone 3] Dog Kennel Slab
Zone 4] Outdoor swimming pool

The dog kennel and pool zones were essentially removed from the system around 1990 as too much heat was being taken away from the main house.
Now get this, the main house has a complete air ducting system which is hooked up to a Cantherm Duo 510 Ground Source system which relied on a constant ground water incoming source of around 50 degrees.
The Cantherm compressor pump squeezed Glycol into an air heat exchanger and a blower forced hot air up through the ducting system throughout the main house and bedrooms.
Anyways, it was deduced that the dog kennel was drawing too much of the heating and separated from the Cantherm around 1990.
They also figured that since no one was using the pool anymore - the pool zone was also removed from the system.
( That was the piping and wiring I asked you guys to ignore in the photos of the water heater panel box )

Cantherm has long been out of business and absolutely every plumbing or HVAC contractor in the area just scratches their heads when seeing this system. LOL
I have to explain how this system works to them....
local plumbers are dumber than boxes of rocks and HVAC contractors only want to charge us no less than $40-$50 thousand dollars to replace the entire system and throw in an hot air oil furnace.
Sheet! I can do that! lol
I did get in contact with the only licensed installer of the original Cantherm system but he has long since moved out to Colorado.
He was trying to help me at first but has a lot of family problems and has lost his notes.
I still retain the original Cantherm Duo 510 system brochure but that was all I could ever find on it.
Out on the internet, there is nearly nothing on this system except very old brochures in archives and are really next to useless.
So, I got into it and learned everything I could about it.

I know more about how this system works than any HVAC contractor or plumber from around a 100 miles of here.
They just get wide-eyed when I explain how it works and their only response is either "We'll get back to you" or " You have what was at one time - the Cadillac of heating systems"...lololololol
I LOVE that one! haha!
Absolutely none of them came back...lol
So, to get heat in here, I bought some firewood for the woodstove ( It a main backup source anyways) and for about $15, I totally rebuilt a Monitor MPI 422 kero heater which works excellent.
I really need to try and get these slabs heated again and to answer your question -No, there are no books in existence on this setup.
It was devised by the last HVAC from Colorado to get the single Sun Room slab working.
I need to buy another hot water heater and do the same setup for the other slabs soon as well.
Once I get this one up and running - it will be a piece of cake to set up the other slabs.
As for the Cantherm Duo 510...it's going to the dump soon.
It will never be in Smithsonian Museum.

As for reading on this?
I've done more than you'll ever care to know...lol
Attached below is a photo I took from the original Cantherm Manual...>>>

I under stand now so you are just trying to heat the one slab now and not the room with this system. Right?
So you have the 30 gal. heater and one loop going into the slab. Right?
First of all, this slabs heat loss is the ground under it, so it has nothing to do with out side temp, so do away with it.
All you want to do is maintain slab temp. Right?
Leave the slab stat where it is at on the out going line. Take the paper out from behind it and wrap insulation around it so it reads the pipe temp better.
Right now it is a guessing game on where to set the elements in the heater.
but i would not go any higher then 120 for now. We don't want to crack the slab.
We are going to have to power purge the system to get the air out of it.
We can get all the air out that way in a very short time.
Before we do this there are a few things i want you to do. Don't worry about putting antifreeze in till much later. You should replace that auto bleeder.
you should take the expansion tank off and put a 1/4 turn ball valve between the tank and where it ties in, this way you can change or service the tank with out draining the system. this is done so you don't lose your antifreeze.
The pump can not push the air out of the loop.
I will have to make you a diagram on how to do this.
I have a large boiler license that goes up to hi pressure steam and water, and i have been doing this for over 40 years.
Paul
paulm989@hotmail.com
989-422-3243

[Stayouttadabunker]

do you have a book on this system and how it is suppose to work?
If both stats can turn off the elements, then the slab stat will turn off the elements and never let more than 72 degrees water temp to the slab. That would mean that the stats on the elements in the heater are just limit controls. You don't get much heat out of 72 degree water. This does not heat the room, just the slab, right? Is this slab insulated under it? I would think that when it 60 out side and the ground temp under the slab is under 60 all the time, that you would still want to heat the slab. Maybe you need to do a little reading on this. Paul

A little history...
When the home was built in 1986, it was zoned 4 ways.
Zone 1] Sun room & Kitchen/Dining slab
Zone 2] Bathroom & bedroom slab
Zone 3] Dog Kennel Slab
Zone 4] Outdoor swimming pool

The dog kennel and pool zones were essentially removed from the system around 1990 as too much heat was being taken away from the main house.
Now get this, the main house has a complete air ducting system which is hooked up to a Cantherm Duo 510 Ground Source system which relied on a constant ground water incoming source of around 50 degrees.
The Cantherm compressor pump squeezed Glycol into an air heat exchanger and a blower forced hot air up through the ducting system throughout the main house and bedrooms.
Anyways, it was deduced that the dog kennel was drawing too much of the heating and was then separated from the Cantherm around 1990.
They also figured that since no one was using the pool anymore - the pool zone was also removed from the system.
( That was the piping and wiring I asked you guys to ignore in the photos of the water heater panel box )

Cantherm has long been out of business and absolutely every plumbing or HVAC contractor in the area just scratches their heads when seeing this system. LOL
I have to explain how this system works to them....
local plumbers are dumber than boxes of rocks and HVAC contractors only want to charge us no less than $40-$50 thousand dollars to replace the entire system and throw in an hot air oil furnace.
Sheet! I can do that! lol
I did get in contact with the only licensed installer of the original Cantherm system but he has long since moved out to Colorado.
He was trying to help me at first but has a lot of family problems and has lost his notes.
I still retain the original Cantherm Duo 510 system brochure but that was all I could ever find on it.
Out on the internet, there is nearly nothing on this system except very old brochures in archives and are really next to useless.
So, I got into it and learned everything I could about it.

I know more about how this system works than any HVAC contractor or plumber from around a 100 miles of here.
They just get wide-eyed when I explain how it works and their only response is either "We'll get back to you" or " You have what was at one time - the Cadillac of heating systems"...lololololol
I LOVE that one! haha!
Absolutely none of them came back...lol
So, to get heat in here, I bought some firewood for the woodstove ( It a main backup source anyways) and for about $15, I totally rebuilt a Monitor MPI 422 kero heater which works excellent.
I really need to try and get these slabs heated again and to answer your question -No, there are no books in existence on this setup.
It was devised by the last HVAC from Colorado to get the single Sun Room slab working.
I need to buy another hot water heater and do the same setup for the other slabs soon as well.
Once I get this one up and running - it will be a piece of cake to set up the other slabs.
As for the Cantherm Duo 510...it's going to the dump soon.
It will never be in Smithsonian Museum.

As for reading on this?
I've done more than you'll ever care to know...lol
Attached below is a photo I took from the original Cantherm Manual...>>>

[paul52446m]

I don't see why you would use a outdoor stat on a system like yours. I don't care what the temp is out side, i would want to heat my slab to 72 degrees. You use a outdoor stat when you are heating a outside sidewalk. You use one to use less temp in your boiler water in the warmer weather. At 47 degrees out side does not mean that slab will stay at 72 degrees. The slab is fighting ground temp, not out side temp, and ground temp under the slab is always less then 72 degrees. Paul

[HayZee518]

From what I can deduce from the system, the lockout thermostat is the master element of the system. when the outside temp is up, the thermostat is open and keeps anything from functioning. there's a bypass switch which I'm assuming is normally open until closed to allow the heater to heat the water/glycol mix. the other thermostat the way its worded has its sensing bulb on the outgoing pipe right below the circulator, which, as you describe will shut off the whole system when the water reaches the "stat's" set point of 72 degrees. I feel the bulb should be on the return piping measuring the return water temperature. Essentially the upper water heater surface stat should be at 120 degrees. the bottom surface stat should be at least 140 degrees so it closes when water at the bottom of the dip tube hits it and it senses THAT temperature. In other words the bottom element will be the work-horse of the system. I'm going over there tomorrow so we'll see what's what - HayZee

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

There are two stats on top of the water heater panel box.
The left stat is the "Outdoor Lockout" stat.
It is set for 47 degrees and does not allow the system to turn on
if the outdoor air is higher than 47 degrees.

The right stat on top of the water heater panel box is the "Slab" stat.
But it is not going upstairs.
Instead its sensor is taped to the "HOT" outlet pipe
under the Grundfos circulator pump.
That one is set for about 72 degrees.

If I were to guess, I'd say that the "Outdoor Lockout" stat -
controls this whole shebang...lol

do you have a book on this system and how it is suppose to work?
If both stats can turn off the elements, then the slab stat will turn off the elements and never let more than 72 degrees water temp to the slab. That would mean that the stats on the elements in the heater are just limit controls. You don't get much heat out of 72 degree water. This does not heat the room, just the slab, right? Is this slab insulated under it? I would think that when it 60 out side and the ground temp under the slab is under 60 all the time, that you would still want to heat the slab. Maybe you need to do a little reading on this. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

OK, the way you got it connected, what is the master element that turns on the whole setup? slab stat? circulator stat? I question this because each element has its own thermostat too!

There are two stats on top of the water heater panel box.
The left stat is the "Outdoor Lockout" stat.
It is set for 47 degrees and does not allow the system to turn on
if the outdoor air is higher than 47 degrees.

The right stat on top of the water heater panel box is the "Slab" stat.
But it is not going upstairs.
Instead its sensor is taped to the "HOT" outlet pipe
under the Grundfos circulator pump.
That one is set for about 72 degrees.

If I were to guess, I'd say that the "Outdoor Lockout" stat -
controls this whole shebang...lol

[Stayouttadabunker]

YOU'RE DA MAN Hayzee!
I'll be home...
I'll take a Shop Vac in a few minutes and get rid of
some spider webs and junk.
Bring a truck! LOL We may have to run into town
and pick up a new heater? lol
All I have is a Chevy Impala!


Now why in the world would the HVAC installer put in two different heater elements 7-8 years ago when he installed it?
Does that make any sense?

Think I oughta pick up a pair of matching 4500's and drain the tank and install them?

[paul52446m]

» Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Thanks Paul however, the Grundfos manual I uploaded to Reply # 15 tells me pretty much the way you've described to check this?
See attachment below this post...>>>

HayZee518 is right on the elements. On you tag on the front of the heater, it tell you that both elements are to be 4500 watts. Paul