Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

[HayZee518]

Mark, I'll be over tomorrow around 10 AM. I sent you a private msg. Tom

[Stayouttadabunker]

I'll try to make it out today, Saturday. I'll call beforehand.
Looking at your photo-s and diagrams, certain questions pop up. First is - you should have a matched set of heater elements. Pix #1 shows a 4500 watt element, #2 shows a 6600 watt element. The difference here is that the 4500 watt element draws 18.75 amps, the 6600 watt element draws about 27 amps. 4500 divided by 240 gives 18.75, 6600 divided by 240 gives 27.5 amps. OK, the way you got it connected, what is the master element that turns on the whole setup? slab stat? circulator stat? I question this because each element has its own thermostat too! Should be power from tha panel to a relay hot. Load side of the relay to the heater. upper element turns on first. when it is satisfied it swaps to the lower thermostat and its element. when the lower element is satisfied it opens and no heat is produced. when the water/glycol mix circulates, the return water is cooler than the outgoing so the bottom element turns on, if the temperature can't be met, the upper one turns on etc. all the time the recirculator is running. you shouldn't need to keep the fill valve open because you are not consuming water for use. you have a closed system. once the air is out you don't add water for any reason unless your slab manifold has a leak.
what size breaker is feeding the heater and circulator. is the circulator using one side of the 240 feed to obtain 120 volts for its operation?

I took some pictures of the water heater panels breakers back from
at the main panel box it's getting the power from.
Red wire is 35A, while black wire is 30A.

They run out the the heater panel box on the wall near the Lowboy.
I think the breakers can handle the Lowboys heater elements?

I'm still working on trying to answer your other questions...
see attachments below...>>>

-mark

[Stayouttadabunker]

One thing a don't remember for sure, In the center of your pump you have that round silver thing that looks like a plug. Can you put pliers on that and gently
see if it on screws. If it does there will be a o ring seal so when you take it out it will leak a little water. if that plug comes out then that gets you into the end of the shaft, so you can put a small screw driver in there and see if the pump is running. Paul

Thanks Paul however, the Grundfos manual I uploaded to Reply # 15 tells me pretty much the way you've described to check this?
See attachment below this post...>>>

[Stayouttadabunker]

I asked once, how did you check and put air into the expansion Tank??

I answered your question in reply #11. Thanks.

You said you think that the feed valve works, you have feed the water in by hitting the fast feed handle on the top of the feed valve. That is not letting use know if a auto feed valve works.

You're right...I have no idea how to check it the way you want me to.
I am merely lifting the the feed lever to allow fresh water into the system.
In your opinion, what's the BEST way to check it's proper operation?

You have to use test tapes on it.

Kind of like the ones used for swimming pools?
If you look at the photograph I attached to the post, my Hydrometer
says "Glycol" as one of the liquids it is capable of checking for?

what's the sense in having glycol in the system if you are going to keep thinning it out with water.

I didn't designed it that way...I was only trying to bring the pressure up and maintain it to around 12LBS on the heater tank pressure gauge.

a line brook

I think Paul means "a broken pipe"

I'll try to make it out today, Saturday. I'll call beforehand.
Looking at your photo-s and diagrams, certain questions pop up. First is - you should have a matched set of heater elements. Pix #1 shows a 4500 watt element, #2 shows a 6600 watt element. The difference here is that the 4500 watt element draws 18.75 amps, the 6600 watt element draws about 27 amps. 4500 divided by 240 gives 18.75, 6600 divided by 240 gives 27.5 amps. OK, the way you got it connected, what is the master element that turns on the whole setup? slab stat? circulator stat? I question this because each element has its own thermostat too! Should be power from tha panel to a relay hot. Load side of the relay to the heater. upper element turns on first. when it is satisfied it swaps to the lower thermostat and its element. when the lower element is satisfied it opens and no heat is produced. when the water/glycol mix circulates, the return water is cooler than the outgoing so the bottom element turns on, if the temperature can't be met, the upper one turns on etc. all the time the recirculator is running. you shouldn't need to keep the fill valve open because you are not consuming water for use. you have a closed system. once the air is out you don't add water for any reason unless your slab manifold has a leak.
what size breaker is feeding the heater and circulator. is the circulator using one side of the 240 feed to obtain 120 volts for its operation?

whew! That's a loaded question! LOL
I tried earlier to show you high-resolution photographs of the wiring hook up this system has.
I took very good photos of the two element panel holes on the Lowboy and I drew and highlighted some high-resolution pictures of the water heater panel box and it's switches and wiring.
I don't know what else to show you?
I can hand draw out the wiring and make a wiring schematic if you would like me to.
That will take a while...
("Mark running around trying to find some paper and a pencil...")

[HayZee518]

Paul got a question for you. In your answer above you mention a line brook. What is that???
If you have a power outage and your not home you might get a line brook that you cant get to it to repair.

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

I get it...it's more of an centrifugal pump rather than like a sump pump -
which is capable of moving water upwards of 15 ft.

still, it seems fairly weak do you think?
It certainly didn't push the heated water very far away
down the line from the water tank.

"if your tank is water-logged"?
I don't understand that question.
Would you mean the "air canister"?
If so, what's the best way to check that component?

"I don't know if you feed valve works"
If I would have to guess, I'd say yes because of how "pink" the Glycol mixture has now become since I was flushing so much out with my garden
hose on the "COLD" return pipe near the top of the water heater.
I think I've thrown out about 25 gallons or more of old anti-freeze mixture since I've started working on this a few days ago.
I've used the cold freshwater feed valve to replenish the system all along.

I do not know what the volume of the Glycol mixture in the lines.
All I can say is that all the components I have on hand here have already been in service
and have been in exceptional working order for the past 7-8 years.

I believe it's more of a matter of determining what components of this system
have lost their integrity and need replacement.
Would you agree?

Your question about the "feed valve" got me thinking
and I wanted to see the Glycol/water ratio so I grabbed an
old hydrometer out of my garage.
I added a couple of pictures of a Hydrometer containing plain water
and the same hydrometer containing some of the Glycol mixture
that's been in there for the past 7-8 years - it looks like I will be needing to
replenish it with a more higher ratio of Glycol to get it up to par?
Should be easy to fill up the water heater with the pump removed?
Just turn the brass screw vertical, stick a funnel in there
and pour in some pure anti-freeze right?

Click on any photo to make larger if needed...>>>

You said you think that the feed valve works, you have feed the water in by hitting the fast feed handle on the top of the feed valve. That is not letting use know if a auto feed valve works. Please forget about putting more antifreeze in the system until we know what all works.
You are suppose to be using a non toxic antifreeze in this system, and if you are, it can not be tested with the tester you use on cars. You have to use test tapes on it.

still, it seems fairly weak do you think?
It certainly didn't push the heated water very far away
down the line from the water tank.
If the system is air locked, the pump can not move the water around.

I asked once, how did you check and put air into the expansion Tank??

If HayZee518 does not get this going for you, let me know and i will tell
you how to power flush the system to get all the air out so we can get her going and test everything. Paul

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

what's the sense in having glycol in the system if you are going to keep thinning it out with water. when you heat water you are going to drive out the oxygen and hydrogen gas dissolved in the water. that's the reason for the expansion tank and air bleed. you want liquid circulating, not an air bubble. you can't circulate liquid if there is a bubble at the inlet to a pump. the pump gets air bound so with no liquid the pump stops functioning, until it primes again with liquid.

It is a common practice to run antifreeze in a in floor heating system. There are heating line loops that can be close to the outer edge of the slab. If you have a power outage and your not home you might get a line brook that you cant get to it to repair.
The reason for a expansion is when you heat any fluid it expanses so if you don't have a place for it to expand to , it will build up too much pressure.
The expansion and auto feed valve is what maintains the proper pressure in the system The law says auto feed valves will be open at all times.
The pump in his case is self priming, the air will go through it and be caught in the air eliminator,
and out the auto bleeder. Paul

[HayZee518]

what's the sense in having glycol in the system if you are going to keep thinning it out with water. when you heat water you are going to drive out the oxygen and hydrogen gas dissolved in the water. that's the reason for the expansion tank and air bleed. you want liquid circulating, not an air bubble. you can't circulate liquid if there is a bubble at the inlet to a pump. the pump gets air bound so with no liquid the pump stops functioning, until it primes again with liquid.

[HayZee518]

I'll try to make it out today, Saturday. I'll call beforehand.
Looking at your photo-s and diagrams, certain questions pop up. First is - you should have a matched set of heater elements. Pix #1 shows a 4500 watt element, #2 shows a 6600 watt element. The difference here is that the 4500 watt element draws 18.75 amps, the 6600 watt element draws about 27 amps. 4500 divided by 240 gives 18.75, 6600 divided by 240 gives 27.5 amps. OK, the way you got it connected, what is the master element that turns on the whole setup? slab stat? circulator stat? I question this because each element has its own thermostat too! Should be power from tha panel to a relay hot. Load side of the relay to the heater. upper element turns on first. when it is satisfied it swaps to the lower thermostat and its element. when the lower element is satisfied it opens and no heat is produced. when the water/glycol mix circulates, the return water is cooler than the outgoing so the bottom element turns on, if the temperature can't be met, the upper one turns on etc. all the time the recirculator is running. you shouldn't need to keep the fill valve open because you are not consuming water for use. you have a closed system. once the air is out you don't add water for any reason unless your slab manifold has a leak.
what size breaker is feeding the heater and circulator. is the circulator using one side of the 240 feed to obtain 120 volts for its operation?

[Stayouttadabunker]

We have to keep in mind that the fluid you are trying to pump is heaver than water.

I get it...it's more of an centrifugal pump rather than like a sump pump -
which is capable of moving water upwards of 15 ft.

still, it seems fairly weak do you think?
It certainly didn't push the heated water very far away
down the line from the water tank.

"if your tank is water-logged"?
I don't understand that question.
Would you mean the "air canister"?
If so, what's the best way to check that component?

"I don't know if you feed valve works"
If I would have to guess, I'd say yes because of how "pink" the Glycol mixture has now become since I was flushing so much out with my garden
hose on the "COLD" return pipe near the top of the water heater.
I think I've thrown out about 25 gallons or more of old anti-freeze mixture since I've started working on this a few days ago.
I've used the cold freshwater feed valve to replenish the system all along.

I do not know what the volume of the Glycol mixture in the lines.
All I can say is that all the components I have on hand here have already been in service
and have been in exceptional working order for the past 7-8 years.

I believe it's more of a matter of determining what components of this system
have lost their integrity and need replacement.
Would you agree?

Your question about the "feed valve" got me thinking
and I wanted to see the Glycol/water ratio so I grabbed an
old hydrometer out of my garage.
I added a couple of pictures of a Hydrometer containing plain water
and the same hydrometer containing some of the Glycol mixture
that's been in there for the past 7-8 years - it looks like I will be needing to
replenish it with a more higher ratio of Glycol to get it up to par?
Should be easy to fill up the water heater with the pump removed?
Just turn the brass screw vertical, stick a funnel in there
and pour in some pure anti-freeze right?

Click on any photo to make larger if needed...>>>

[paul52446m]

1st I turned the brass screws horizontal
and removed the pump bolts.
I rigged up the circ. pump to a 5 gallon bucket with
a rubber hose going down into about
8 inches of Glycol red anti-freeze.

I removed the power to the heating elements
at the water heater panel box and turned on
the outdoor lockout thermostat to power up the pump.

The pump is weak I think?
I even primed it with a cup full of Glycol too!
I made a short video clip of it in ...uh...action...LOL
All it does is make foam out of Glycol...HELP!!! >>>

Grundfos 15-pump jury rigged for testing purposes.MOV - YouTube

This pump is called a circulating pump. This means when it is in the system with water on each side of it and equal pressure on both sides of it is is made to circulate about 7 to 8 gal. a min. to no more than a 7' head pressure.
It is not like a well water pump that can pull water out of the ground and push it with hi pressure. This little pump can be used in a house where boiler is in the basement and your have one story above it. If i have a two story house with the boiler in a basement, then i have to go to a higher pumping volume. We have to keep in mind that the fluid you are trying to pump is heaver than water. For no more than you are pumping i would think this pump would do the job. Do you know about how much fluid you have in your system?.
We will probably have to go step by step because you are jumping around so fast that i cant tell what works and what don't work. I don't know if you feed valve works , or if your tank is water logged. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

1st I turned the brass screws horizontal
and removed the pump bolts.
I rigged up the circ. pump to a 5 gallon bucket with
a rubber hose going down into about
8 inches of Glycol red anti-freeze.

I removed the power to the heating elements
at the water heater panel box and turned on
the outdoor lockout thermostat to power up the pump.

The pump is weak I think?
I even primed it with a cup full of Glycol too!
I made a short video clip of it in ...uh...action...LOL
All it does is make foam out of Glycol...HELP!!! >>>

Grundfos 15-pump jury rigged for testing purposes.MOV - YouTube

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Thanks Paul...!!
I'll be back in a bit...gotta go take my pump apart! lol
so... how do we check if the air eliminator is working properly?

Nothing can go wrong with the air eliminator, its all cast iron, Just make sure the arrow on it is pointing with the flow. Now the bleeder on top can leak or get plugged up so its not a bad idea to replace it. paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

you can take the pump off if you want to. It wont hurt the pump to run it for a few seconds just to try it. When you install a pump , only tighten the bolts enough so the don't leak, Do not over tighten.
I am a heating and boiler man, so i don't know about those greeneys. Paul

Thanks Paul...!!
I'll be back in a bit...gotta go take my pump apart! lol
so... how do we check if the air eliminator is working properly?

[paul52446m]

Why don't I just put the two brass valve screws at horizontal
and remove the pump?
I can test it here on the floor with a bucket half full of water and a couple of hoses attached to the pump?
I'd hate to mess with a machined pump seal that will only leak later?
What do you think?
I can always get new pump-to-water-pipe gaskets later....cheaper than buying a new pump?

I was just looking at the Grundfos website and it doesn't look like they make the Class F UP 15-42 F model pump like I have anymore. >>>

http://www.us.grundfos.com/Web/Download.nsf/Pages/1F70D43772F3F40F0825691A0068A1AA/$File/L-PH-SL-001.pdf

By the way, is there a way to turn off all these green highlights
and links whenever one makes a post?

you can take the pump off if you want to. It wont hurt the pump to run it for a few seconds just to try it. When you install a pump , only tighten the bolts enough so the don't leak, Do not over tighten.
I am a heating and boiler man, so i don't know about those greeneys. Paul