Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

[Stayouttadabunker]

One thing a don't remember for sure, In the center of your pump you have that round silver thing that looks like a plug. Can you put pliers on that and gently
see if it on screws. If it does there will be a o ring seal so when you take it out it will leak a little water. if that plug comes out then that gets you into the end of the shaft, so you can put a small screw driver in there and see if the pump is running. Paul

Why don't I just put the two brass valve screws at horizontal
and remove the pump?
I can test it here on the floor with a bucket half full of water and a couple of hoses attached to the pump?
I'd hate to mess with a machined pump seal that will only leak later?
What do you think?
I can always get new pump-to-water-pipe gaskets later....cheaper than buying a new pump?

I was just looking at the Grundfos website and it doesn't look like they make the Class F UP 15-42 F model pump like I have anymore. >>>

http://www.us.grundfos.com/Web/Download.nsf/Pages/1F70D43772F3F40F0825691A0068A1AA/$File/L-PH-SL-001.pdf

Here's a manual on the Grundfos 15 -42F pump >>>

http://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/Grundfos-UPS15,UP15-43,50-Installation-Manual.pdf

A secondary manual >>>

http://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/Grundfos-UP15-Series-Instellation-Manual.pdf

A product guide >>>

http://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/Grundfos-UP-Series.pdf

A Technical data sheet...I like technical stuff...lol >>>

http://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/59896155-grundfos-up15-42f.pdf

By the way, is there a way to turn off all these green highlights
and links whenever one makes a post?

[Stayouttadabunker]

Also, the Upper and Lower heater elements may be different?
Attached are a couple photos of these units...>>>

[Stayouttadabunker]

When you look at your pump, there is a slot to put a large screw driver in. those are valves built into the pump flange if the slots are going with the pipe then they are open like the are now. If you turn both of them 90 degrees they would be closed so you can change the pump. On the back side of the blue pump, is the arrow pointing up?. Paul

Yep...
Thanks paul,
Both brass screws are facing vertical and on the sides of the Grundfos are upwards pointing directional stampings as in the photo I've attached to this post...>>>

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Okay...as promised, pics of pump and Lowboy heater elements.
The first three photos are:

1] top of pump
2] bottom of pump
3] the pumps' labeling

One thing a don't remember for sure, In the center of your pump you have that round silver thing that looks like a plug. Can you put pliers on that and gently
see if it on screws. If it does there will be a o ring seal so when you take it out it will leak a little water. if that plug comes out then that gets you into the end of the shaft, so you can put a small screw driver in there and see if the pump is running. Paul

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Thanks Paul,
I think I answered all the other questions in post #11 but I may have
missed this one from you post earlier in which I've quoted you from above?
If I did, I apologize as I am trying my best to give you guys as best detailed answers as I can.
Can you guys see my photos zoomed in?
I took the photos with a fairly high resolution camera.

Anyways, I'm not sure if it is indeed bleeding any air out of the air eliminator unit on top of the air canister.
I had removed the cap that was on the tube ( and left it off ) but I don't think there's any air valve in it?
I did put my finger on top of the outlet tube ( I think I mentioned that earlier) but I do not really feel anything coming out of it as the circulation pump is running.
Is there a way to check this particular unit for proper functioning?

This system has been running since 1986 but the Lowboy was replaced about 7 -8 years ago as I said in my 1st post.
I certainly do understand that it takes time to get the heat out to the slab ( at about 25-30 feet away from the Lowboy ) and get any warmer temp back on the return line to the heater tank, but the pipe in the immediate area just above the "HOT" outlet of the tank and around the pump, should be a lot warmer to the touch than it is no?
I do not believe the lukewarm water is reaching any further than about 10 -15 feet up the pipe. In fact, it feels cold at about 4 feet past the air eliminator unit.

I am still puzzled as to why the bottom element isn't turning on when the water inside the tank should be fairly cold.
with the wires off of the elements, what reading should I get ( in Ohms) to verify that they are ok?

I am running downstairs now to take some more photos of the Grundfos to see if that will help answer your question about the two valves.
BTW I didn't know the Grundfos pump HAD any valves...lol
I thought it just had a circulatory pump impeller inside?

Hayzee, answered that question about the running of the elements. To get hot water quicker the top one comes on first
Ok i am not going to get to hi tech. You have two elements, which might be 4500 watts each Your heater is probably wired with #10 wire which is only large enough to run one element at a time so that is why they put a transferring thermostat on the water heaters
If you wanted a lot more heat you would have to run another #10 30 amp
circuit and have a stat on both element. Paul

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Okay...as promised, pics of pump and Lowboy heater elements.
The first three photos are:

1] top of pump
2] bottom of pump
3] the pumps' labeling

When you look at your pump, there is a slot to put a large screw driver in. those are valves built into the pump flange if the slots are going with the pipe then they are open like the are now. If you turn both of them 90 degrees they would be closed so you can change the pump. On the back side of the blue pump, is the arrow pointing up?. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

Now, here are pictures of the Lowboy elements - their wiring hook up and their temperature adjustment dial settings of 120 degrees each.
They've run at 110 degrees for the past 7-8 years.

I've put captions on the bottom of the photos to show which is what...>>>

[Stayouttadabunker]

Okay...as promised, pics of pump and Lowboy heater elements.
The first three photos are:

1] top of pump
2] bottom of pump
3] the pumps' labeling

[Stayouttadabunker]

... Is it letting air out of the auto bleeder. ...

Thanks Paul,
I think I answered all the other questions in post #11 but I may have
missed this one from you post earlier in which I've quoted you from above?
If I did, I apologize as I am trying my best to give you guys as best detailed answers as I can.
Can you guys see my photos zoomed in?
I took the photos with a fairly high resolution camera.

Anyways, I'm not sure if it is indeed bleeding any air out of the air eliminator unit on top of the air canister.
I had removed the cap that was on the tube ( and left it off ) but I don't think there's any air valve in it?
I did put my finger on top of the outlet tube ( I think I mentioned that earlier) but I do not really feel anything coming out of it as the circulation pump is running.
Is there a way to check this particular unit for proper functioning?

This system has been running since 1986 but the Lowboy was replaced about 7 -8 years ago as I said in my 1st post.
I certainly do understand that it takes time to get the heat out to the slab ( at about 25-30 feet away from the Lowboy ) and get any warmer temp back on the return line to the heater tank, but the pipe in the immediate area just above the "HOT" outlet of the tank and around the pump, should be a lot warmer to the touch than it is no?
I do not believe the lukewarm water is reaching any further than about 10 -15 feet up the pipe. In fact, it feels cold at about 4 feet past the air eliminator unit.

I am still puzzled as to why the bottom element isn't turning on when the water inside the tank should be fairly cold.
with the wires off of the elements, what reading should I get ( in Ohms) to verify that they are ok?

I am running downstairs now to take some more photos of the Grundfos to see if that will help answer your question about the two valves.
BTW I didn't know the Grundfos pump HAD any valves...lol
I thought it just had a circulatory pump impeller inside?

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Thanks for the good question Hayzee,
The blue Grundfos? (Is that the name of it? Sounds like a German make or something...lol) circulation pump is placed on the outlet line just above the Lowboy.
By the way, the point where it exits the heater tank says..."HOT"
The other pipe going into the top of the heater says "COLD"
I'm kind of surprised that the freshwater cold inlet is attached just above the "HOT" outlet and Grundfos pump.
I attached pictures of it in my earlier posts...I also made a pretty good drawing to show everyone.
I re-attached it here with some photo shopping circles pointing out what's what...>>>

I already checked out the direction flow. One thing i can't see, is both valves in the pump flange in the open position?
Have you used the heating before? You said the out going line was getting a little warm. At 110 degrees going out that slab will eat up that temp and take
all night to feel any temp coming back Takes a long time to warm a slab. Try torn it up to 140, no higher. You did not answer my question from the last post. Can't help you if you don't answer questions. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

Thanks for the good question Hayzee,
The blue Grundfos? (Is that the name of it? Sounds like a German make or something...lol) circulation pump is placed on the outlet line just above the Lowboy.
By the way, the point where it exits the heater tank says..."HOT"
The other pipe going into the top of the heater says "COLD"
I'm kind of surprised that the freshwater cold inlet is attached just above the "HOT" outlet and Grundfos pump.
I attached pictures of it in my earlier posts...I also made a pretty good drawing to show everyone.
I re-attached it here with some photo shopping circles pointing out what's what...>>>

[HayZee518]

is the circulator on the outlet side or inlet side of the heater. my reason for this, is the normal cold water inlet has a poly tube that goes to the bottom of the heater. once the upper element is satisfied it switches to the lower thermostat so as you draw hot water from the top, cold water goes to the bottom and turns on the lower element. as you know hot water stratifies to the top of a heater, so as the cold is heated it rises upward to the top of the bonnet. once you've exhausted the heater of hot water, the upper element turns on and shuts off the lower element. in the case of a oil burner heater the whole tank is heated at once, again the dip tube goes to the bottom and the stat is connected to the burner relay. the circulator if it is on the cold water inlet will force the cooled water to the bottom to turn on the lower element.

[Stayouttadabunker]

Haha! That would be great!
For you Hayzee, I attached a map with directions.
Just open them in another window to enlarge them.
I used the Google maps to get the pictures.
You can see on the map that I'm on Route 37 about
6 miles north of Malone going towards Ft. Covington, NY.

As you come nearer to the house, there's a church on the left hand side of the road and you will see a bunch of very tall pine trees just before my driveway on the right.
You will an older untreated cedar ranch style home with a light colored sandstone wall
between the house and the garage.

I will try to email you so we can try to meet at your convenience.
I don't have a hard line phone and just use a cellphone out here.

Paul,
At the very bottom of the red air tank is an air valve to where I attached a small, cheap air compressor to it and added about 12 LBS of air.
The cheap air pump I have doesn't have a very accurate gauge on it but it did the job as I saw the pressure also rise to 12 LBS on the water heater gauge.

I've purged at least 20 gallons of Glycol by now by that green
garden hose that I have attached to the cold heater tank inlet spout shutoff...lol sorry Paul!
My thinking was that would be like opening the hot water faucet when filling a regular heater tank to let the air out...
Now I gotta go buy some more anti-freeze I guess.
I have to get a hydrometer too...to see what mixture ratio is left in the lines.
I wonder what that ratio would be? 50/50 or less Glycol than that?
Or should I just use red RV anti-freeze coolant?

Finally, ( boy you guys have a lot of good questions! lol )
I did set those two heat adjusters on the elements to 120 degrees but the bottom element never came on - even after 4 hrs.
The hot pipe never got warmer than...uh...warm and it got kinda cold once it went past the air eliminator about 5 feet further down the line.
Warm water never reached the slab which would be about 25- 30 feet away on the above floor.
The inlet pipe on top got slightly lukewarm as well...the pipes never ever got hot to the touch and the bottom element never turned on.
I'm wondering if the elements so be changed out?
Maybe the element heat adjustment screw is malfunctioning?
I will turn them adjusters up to like 130 degrees each and see if that changes anything before I run out an buy some new ones.

[HayZee518]

where are you in Malone? Maybe I could help you. I'm in Saint Regis Falls, 'bout a half hr from Malone. I got a clamp around ammeter and several meters [ digital and analog]

[paul52446m]

When I bled some water out through the hose into my bucket, I reduced the pressure to zero LBS.
But when I filled the air tank canister to 12 LBS - the pressure gauge on top of the heater ALSO showed 12LBS.

Anyways, I disconnected the red 240VAC power wire to the top element thermostat - that effectively left the elements un-powered.
I ran the circulator pump for a few minutes and added fresh cold water to the system with the directional check valve to bring the pressure to exactly 12 LBS. Didn't take much really...just a touch of the lever.

I don't hear gurgling sounds anymore and as I put my ear onto the vertical pipes - I could hear the circulator rotor turning smoothly with a faint hum.
I have pretty bad hearing but I can't really tell if it's water running through or the pump itself.
It's not loud at all.
The pressure did not change at all and remained at a steady 12 LBS.
I figured it was ready for heat!

I turned off the outdoor lockout switch and went and turned the main power off to the panel.
I re-hooked the red 220VAC wire to the element thermostat and turned on the heater again.d the cold intake remained the same temp.

After a few minutes...I could feel the output pipe from the heater being slightly warmish thinking yeah! while the cold intake felt fairly cold.
Here's the problem now as we stand:
Even after 3 hours, the hot output pipe did not get any warmer and the pressure gauge also stayed at 12LBs.

I stuck a multimeter on the two heater elements.
I get 239 for the top element but zero volts on the bottom element.
I shut the power off...pulled off the red wires to both elements and got an ohm reading of about 13.1 ohms with both of them.
So they're okay?

Maybe the heater element thermostat on top of the top element isn't kicking on?
Shouldn't both elements be fully "ON" when initially starting up a cold water heater?
There are a small temp adjustment on each element but they are both set to 110 degrees.

Or do we still have some sort of air-lock in the system somewhere?

I'm attaching more pictures I photoshopped to help with and to help describe what is happening up here.
I am hitting the sack...I'm tired.
I'll watch tomorrow and see if you can add any tips and hints as to what to try next.
Again, thank you so very much for all your help thus far!

-Mark

How are you filling the expansion tank to 12 LBS? Is there place in the bottom of the tank to put the air in? Do not try to take air out of that boiler drain that you have the hose tied to. That valve is to power purge the system. We could do the power purge, but we would lose all you antifreeze.
On a water heater like yours on a cold start only the upper element comes on, then when it get up to temp the power is transferred to the lower element. It would not hurt if the elements were set at 120 degrees. Paul