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**Hube** · 01-24-2004, 07:26 AM

Jmack, Welcome to the forum. You ask; "is this an insulation problem or an hvac problem. It's more than likely a combination of BOTH.Improperly installed insulation in the walls and around electrical outlets can admit a lot of cold (infiltration).... Do you have a "OPEN passageway from the lower level to the upper level, or is there a closed door(at stairs) to the upper area? Also, do you have any Return air Grilles located in the rooms of the upstairs level? And where are the downstairs level Return grilles located? Are these (if any)grilles located high or low? I assume this is an forced air Ducted furnace. Post back with this info and we will advise further,Thanks, Hube

**jmack** · 01-24-2004, 05:06 PM

Awesome!! Thanks for the quick response!

Well, its a forced air furnace, and to my knowledge, there is only one cold air return upstairs which is in the master bedroom upstairs and down the hall from the coldest room.

There is a wide open stairway all the way upstairs and absolutely nothing that could be blocking the warm air from rising. I would also like to point out, that on really cold days, you can actually feel a draft creeping down the stairs from the upper level. What really makes me wonder about this house is that on the lower level there is one vent in the kitchen, there are four vents in the living room, 2 vents in the dining room, none in the downstairs bathroom and two in the basement.

Upstairs there is only ONE vent for each of the kids bedrooms but 2 vents in the master bath, 3 vents in teh master bedroom, no vents in the guest bath. And then there is the cold air return in the master bedroom which is near the ceiling.

Im actually beginning to think that the folks who built this house didnt really know what they were doing. I also noticed today that the thermostat sits in direct sunlight from morning until noon. Smart. Im pretty sure THATS not the problem though, because as I said before...downstairs stays heated fine.. but upstairs is freezing.

We thought about having a pro come in and crank up the blower on the furnace.. or should i get one of those magnetic sheets to cover the upstairs cold air return? I mean seriously, if its a cold air return, why would it be near the ceiling?

**Hube** · 01-25-2004, 08:00 AM

Return air CEILING openings are ideal when in the "cooling" season because they take any heat that accumulates in the ceiling area back to the unit to be cooled. BUT, in the HEATING season, the RETURN air opening should be at the LOW WALL/ FLOOR level for best results. This is why some of the up to date installations install a "High and a Low" opening in the same stud space. A damper located in the lower grille can be changed for the required season.Make sure that the supply air DAMPERS are OPENED at the Main trunk line that serve these upper registers. In your case it seems that this is either a poorly designed system, and/or lack of insulation in this upper area... Thermostats should never be installed in direct sunlite, but this is another flaw, but not the problem at hand. For a house built in 1999 to CODE, there should be adequate insulation in the walls.(min R 19) When you say "vents" I assume your referring to "Supply air Registers".From your description it seems like there are enough SUPPLY air Registers, but a LACK of the much needed RETURN air openings (grilles). Your would be best to have an Pro HVAC come in and give you proper "Visual" suggestions. An experiecd Tech will sum up this problem in a very short time. Let us know how you make out. Good luck, Hube

**ajg93** · 02-11-2004, 03:19 PM

Hi Hube and jmack..

I am wondering what happened with the problem. I am in a very similar situation where I just moved into a house (that was built in 1999). I to have a upper level of a 2-storey home that is 2-3 degrees cooler than the main floor. I have tried many things: put plastic shrink wrap over upstairs windows, closed off all vents on the main level (there are 4). What this accomplished was getting more heat upstairs when the furance is on (forced air, gas). When my thermostat comes back from a set back (morning, night), all areas warm equally. However, during the maintenance times (evening), the upstairs cools faster than main floor. From other forums, I've been told that my furance may be too small, too big, i need zoning, i need a second t-stat, more insulation, less insulation, etc. I've heard a lot. What has caught my attention in your post is the placement of your t-stat. Like yours, mine is located in my living room where ceilings are lower and is close to the kitchen. When I cook, the room heats up, the t-stat doesn't go on, and the house upstairs cools. Funny enough - not five feet down (closer to the entrance door and in my hall area which has high ceilings to the second floor) there is a 1 degree cooler difference. My last thought is to move the t-stat. I really want to get a balance in the house and also re-open some of my vents (not sure if it's good to keep 1/3 closed). I figure if I can move my t-stat before the kitchen entrance and closer to the stairwell, i may get a better overall temp. My concern is that if heat is escaping through the roof, my furance will be going on non-stop. Do you have any ideas? I am sorry for the long post.

Adam

**Hube** · 02-11-2004, 06:06 PM

ajg93; A 1999 house built to code and properly inspected should be Ok in the insulation deparment, etc. An improperly located thermostat can be influenced by being too near the kitchen,(stove and oven heat) Also some T stats are too near a area where body heat of a few seated people are, thus picking up their body heat and not letting the furnace cycle. Find a "neutral" spot approx 4- 5' above floor level where there is no interference from sunlite, occupants,or heat / cool vents or grilles. And yes,a lack of Return air is a major culprit when it comes to a cool upper level.. Hube

**ajg93** · 02-11-2004, 06:44 PM

Thanks Hube.

Actually, there are 2 return air vents upstairs - one in the hall, the other in master bedroom. They were both at ceiling level. I just recently closed off the ceiling ones and created two floor level ones. This will allow me to switch based on summer and winter.

Thanks for your insight on the t-stat. I believe now that mine is not properly located to achieve a balance in the house. The current location is pretty much in the living room / dining room area (just a the entrance. And the times where we have the problem is when we are in those rooms (hence you comment about body heat). If I move it, are there any places I should not put it? Are there any risks?

Thanks Again.
Adam

**Hube** · 02-11-2004, 07:29 PM

ajg93; I have found one of the ideal places is a HALLWAY,with no supply or return vents nearby, and limited traffic. Also, nice to hear you have both "high and low" R/a's, they will come in handy when the season changes. If your rooms are still not equally warm, you can "TUNE" your heat runs by throttling (dampering) down some of the warmer rooms therefor bringing more heat into some of the less warmer ones. This is known as "Balance". Hube

**ajg93** · 02-11-2004, 08:33 PM

Hube: The only balance I was able to achieve was to shut down all main floor vents. Most of the vents had dampers in the arms(all be it not at the beginning of the arm so I'm not sure how much redirection of air I am achieving) so I closed those. What this seemed to do was artifically create a cooler downstairs and hence calling the furance more often. Some how, the heat from downstairs is not "rising" upstairs or if it is, it's escaping through the roof. My last thought is to move the t-stat.

**Hube** · 02-12-2004, 07:20 AM

In your case since you have given more detail, moving the T stat will NOT solve any of the problems that you mentioned in your last reply. This would appear to be a design flaw in the layout of your duct system, and you will be best to have a Hvac Tech have a "hands on " look at it. Good luck. Hube

**ajg93** · 02-12-2004, 09:16 AM

Hmmm...this is very frustrating. In a finished house with a finished basement, I can't see how the duct system could possibly be corrected at this point.

**Hube** · 02-12-2004, 01:27 PM

A Tech may be able to do some good to the system without doing ANY revisions to the ductsizes,etc. The fan's speed can be adjusted , the fan ON and OFF settings (temp rise) can be adjusted, all which can MAYBE overcome SOMEof the problems that are now present. Hube

**ajg93** · 02-12-2004, 02:10 PM

Thanks Hube.
Adam

**ajg93** · 02-13-2004, 11:16 AM

Hube..I've managed to get a hold of the furance manual and learned how I can adjust my blower speeds. While i am unsure as to what the current setting is, I do know that I have 3 speeds which to select from. Would raising the fan speed have any effect or be benefical (or harmful)?

Thanks,
Adam

**Hube** · 02-13-2004, 05:17 PM

Fan speed, in the HEAT mode is based on the "temperature rise" between incoming and out going air at the hottest area of the Furnace (exchanger)... Keep within the furnaces' specific range or you can DAMAGE (crack) the Heat Exchanger. A Velometer is also used to determine the most adequate heat speed along with probe therm's and a Ampmeter. An incorrect speed will only give you more problems... As i said in an earlier post, Its best to have a Tech look at it at this stage . You may be getting a bit out of your range by trying to cram 3 or 4 years of training into a hour or so of manual reading.

There are many variables to your problem and I say again, you need a Tech that will see this system "Hands On" and make the necessary adjustments. Good luck...Hube

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