Moving washing machine~ Need help

[fauxplumber]

I need to relocate a clothes washer to an area that has never had one (large closet). I need to supply drain, vent and water. The local hardware store said I could use an air inlet valve in the wall for the venting.
I have checked some local codes and it appears the air inlet valve is acceptable as long as it ends 6" above insulation in an open ventilated area. I think that rules out placing the valve inside a wall. Apparently having it in the attic is acceptable. I think a vent through an outside attic wall (without a valve) would be better in the long run. I understand that this is acceptable as long as it is not under a soffit vent and is 10' above ground. I would like to avoid going through the roof as it is brittle. Does anyone have thoughts on this. The drain I intend to use is 2" and I thought I would use 1 1/2 inch vent . Also the trap does unscrew so is it necessary to install a seperate clean out for this line. I am thinking of using a sani T for the vent. The Stand pipe and trap will sit beside the washer and outside the wall. I want to run the vent inside the wall to the attic. The washer is the only thing that will be on the line. Does the trap need to be 6" above the floor. The old trap in the other location rested on the floor. Why does it need to be raised? Also I need to run the 2" drain aprox 6 foot( through a closet and through a block wall. Does it need to be sleeved? Can I temporarily end this drain in the top of the septic tank (the lid is broken so could use as access. The septic will soon be abandoned and this line will be joined to city sewer along with the main drain. Just in the planning stages on this so any help sincerely appreciated.. There are probably questions I have failed to ask so please feel free to supply any info you feel would be helpful. Thanks so much.

[LazyPup]

fauxplumber..Judging by your layout details I must assume that the local code in your jurisdiction is based upon the International Residential Code. Your use of proper terminology and layout details sounds like you have been studying up on the codes, thats great.

Your local hardware gave you a bum tip. An air admittance valve (studor vent) may not be installed inside the wall cavity for two reasons. 1. Once the wallboard is applied there would be no access to air and 2. Air Admittance valves MUST BE installed in a readily accessible place for inspection or service. (Some jurisdictions will permit the AAV inside the wall cavity if it is equiped with a louvered & hinged access cover to permit air infiltration and service access.)

Air Admittance valves may be installed in the near proximity of the fixture being served or in the attic space. (when installed in the attic space it must be 6" above the level of the insulation).

You are correct that the line must be protected by a sleeve when it passes through a masonary wall, however, it must also be 6" below the average frost depth.

You did not mention whether the structure is on a slab or has a crawlspace or basement. Hopefully you have access under the floor.

You would not be permitted to make the temporary drain connection through the lid of the septic tank. All waste entering a septic tank must enter through the main drain line and all waste lines are required to have a minimum of 12" burial (In areas subject to frost the line must be 6" below average frost depth.) Also, there may be no connections to the main sewer line downstream of the house main cleanout at the junction of the house drain and house sewer. Immediately inside the foundation wall when there is a crawlspace or basement or on slab 3ft ourside the structure foundation.

The trap should be 6" above the floor to permit putting a catch pan under it to open the trap for service.

If you have access under the floor the International Residential Code will permit the trap under the floor. (The Uniform Plumbing Code prohibits traps under the floor)

The easiest method for you to create the vent would be to install an air admittance valve at the washer standpipe.

If the trap is installed on the end of a horizontal pipe the riser for the vent MUST BE connected by means of a WYE & 1/8th bend or Combo...TEE prohibited.

See Attached drawing.

[fauxplumber]

LazyPup, Thank you so much for helping. I have read many of your post and I am very impressed with your thoughtful answers. I Love the diagrams. What a big help. Do you know how rare you are? I really don't enjoy doing these projects but it is so difficult to find someone to trust. Of course cost is an issue too. I am sorry I didn't give you important information. I am in south Florida so we don't get much frost. Unfortunately it is on a slab. The washer will be put in a closet that is back to back with another closet that is 6 foot wide. I will have to go through the first closets back wall and cross this second closet (running beside the side wall). Straight shot of 6 ft. (with 1/4" slope each foot)and go through the block wall above grade. I will form a shoe rack to disguise drain and water lines. I know this is not ideal. A bath adjoins the second closets side wall and the tub will have to be used to get a water supply. The water lines are 1/2 inch. The septic system is about 4 ft. beyond the exterior of the second closets outside wall. I have not found a clean out but have not dug up the whole area. The house is Aprox 35 years old. I know this information will change the diagram. I was trying to put the air inlet in the attic because I am not sure how reliable they are and didn't want any sewer gas seeping in. Your design is much simpler. Would that vent pipe be 1 1/2 inch? The air inlet valve I looked at screwed onto 1 1/2" pipe. I trust your opinion and if you think it is OK I will do it that way. Since the drain will be going parallel to the floor how will that change the connections? I really appreciate this because there is no way I could do this without help. I am trying to get this moved before hook up to the city sewer. This line can be added to the line outside the house when that job is done. The washer has caused many backups since it is currently on the opposite side of the house. I thought it would be best on its own line and as near as possible to the sewer. It is also more convenient. Thanks again.

[LazyPup]

Since your house is on a slab your "Main cleanout" should be located on the main drain about 3" outside the foundation wall.

You will not be permitted to tie in at the main cleanout because the main cleanout is a rodding tee and may only be used for cleanouts. (Rodding Tee's have a bi-directional sweep which permits a drain snake to be run in either direction.)

Being in south Florida and having a septic tank, the main drain is probably not much more than 12 to 18" below grade.

The is a code restriction that prohibits digging a trench parallel to the foundation wall within a 45 deg downslope from the wall. The is to prevent disturbing the soil which could effect the foundation. Rule of thumb, when running a trench parallel to the foundation wall you must be one foot away from the foundation for each foot of depth. You may dig a trench to the wall at right angles.

Usually the soil in Florida is very sandy and loose so you should be able to locate the drain line with a probe before you begin digging.

I would run the line horizontal from the washer location through the wall in the manner you suggest. Immediately outside the wall install a sani-Tee and drop the line vertically below grade. Install a long radius 90 at the bottom of the vertical drop and run the line to the house drain line. Tie into the house drain line with a WYE.

On the washer end you will need to use a Wye and 1/8th bend or a Combo to make the vertical riser for the vent. (May not use a sanitary Tee)

The code allows you to reduce the diameter of an auxillary vent to 1/2 the diameter of the line it serves once it is 6" higher than the flood level rim of the highest fixture served (in this case the top of the washer standpipe), but in no case may it be less than 1-1/4".

You might be able to find a 2" air admittance valve at a plumbing supply store, but the easier method would be to extend the vent riser 6" higher than the top of the standpipe then install a 2" couling with an 1-1/2" x 2" bushing and an 1-1/2" male threaded cleanout adapter. (That will provide an 1-1/2 female NPT thread to accept an 1-1/2 AAV.

The following illustration will better explain when to use a Sanitary Tee of a Wye & 1/8th bend.

[fauxplumber]

I think I understand but have a few more questions. If the connection to the main line needs to be made before the clean out and if the clean out is about 3" from the wall. I don't see how I can add a line in. Quote "Also, there may be no connections to the main sewer line downstream of the house main cleanout at the junction of the house drain and house sewer." I think the main line will be cast iron so that will be a challenge. Do you know the size of the sleeve required for the 2" pipe through the wall? Can I use the plastic drain for the small exterior portion that will be above grade? Back to the washing machine portion. Order of installation> I will have the stand pipe at required height and 6" off the ground. Followed by a trap. The trap will attach to a combo wye. Will the Separated ends of the Wye be pointing toward the stand pipe? I will extend the Vent the additional 6" and reduce as you suggested if I can't find a 2" air inlet. What a Job! The dryer was much easier. Maybe it won't be as bad as it sounds. Also what are your feelings on using plastic, copper and compression or soldered to tap into the copper plumbing? I don't have a good history of soldering the copper without leaks. I end up spending too much time redoing it. Sorry for the long post and all the questions. I just try to get it all figured out first. I only want to do it once. Thank you

[LazyPup]

First of all, do no appologize for the long post as I enjoy it and you have helped make an otherwise boring afternoon go by very quickly.

The attached drawing should provide you with the necessary information on what fittings and pipe size to use for the drain.

The code has a minimum of 3" for all lines below grade.

When passing a pipe through a masonary wall you are required a sleeve. A sleeve is a short lenght of pipe two nominal pipe sizes larger than the desired pipe. In this case the desired pipe is 2" and pipe sizes are 2", 2.5", 3" therefore your sleeve would need to be 3".

You did not mention the age of this house, but if all the DWV piping in the house is PVC there is a strong liklihood that the Main Drain and House sewer are also PVC. If it is cast iron you can easily break out a section of the cast and replace it with PVC.

You asked me what type of pipe I would select for the water supply? Keep in mind that I am a plumber and I carry a soldering torch for a cigarette lighter so it is obvious that i would personally prefer copper.

Soldering copper is not difficult if you make sure you clean both the pipe and fittings very good, apply ample flux and heat properly. This is especially true of running new copper that is totally free of water. Most people have problems with making repair joints on copper because they fail to drain all the water out of the line properly.

Saddle taps are out as they are a no no in the code.

Copper compression fittings are ok, but they may only be used in an open area. Mechanical fittings may not be used in a concealed location. If you are really uncomfortable with soldering you might enlist the aid of a friend or relative to help you make the first tap by soldering in a tee, then install a copper x CPVC union. You could then run the remainder of the water lines with CPVC. (PVC is approved for the water main from the well or municipal source to the structure buy may not be used for water distribution lines within a structure.) Another option would be to use PEX, but PEX is only approved if it is connected with Code approved crimp on fittings that are set on with a code approved crimper and the crimping tools are quite expensive, (typically about $125 for each size.) You will notice that they sell compression fittings for PEX in the hardware and home supply stores. They are approved for use on heating systems but not approved for water supply.

[fauxplumber]

Oh boy those drawings are amazing. A picture is definitely worth a thousand words (esp. with plumbing). I am going to print it out. The washer stand pipe is just as I had envisioned when you described it. You give very good descriptions but the pictures, of course ,are priceless. I really have no natural abilities in this area but fortunately I can translate a good diagram into a finished product. I am female and blonde so need all the help I can get ;.) The plumbing is all copper and cast iron. House is 35 years old.

I was surprised by all the codes involved in this. I guess I have to use the purple cement to clean and join all this plastic. I had the yellow (has cleaner and cement together). Back to the store. I also just realized I probably should have put in a fault protected outlet for the washer. I just put in a regular 20 so guess I will need to correct that. I have been debating on getting a permit for this But inspections scare me. The only time I have dealt with the inspectors was when I roofed my last house. They didn't give me a hard time and I was doing it correctly. But really alot less to learn there. Not doing it legally bothers me though. I'd hate to get into trouble. You have shared information I would have never thought of. I wouldn't have had a shot at this without your help. The water connections are a concern. I solder stained glass so I am use to the principles but had a little incident a few weeks back with a torch. I was going to heat up a fitting that I couldn't get loose. I fired up a torch that was in the shed. It was lit and seemed to be fine for a period of time. The next thing I new I was holding a ball of fire. Fortunately I was in a shed and not the house. I tossed the whole thing out the door and hosed it down. Now All I can think of is being in the closet holding another ball of fire. I would probably beat myself to death trying to get out of there. I really never had any fear of them until that happened. It was an older set so I am not sure what happened. I guess it may have loosened. I may hire someone to run the water pipes properly. It is hard to find anyone to do these little jobs though. I guess they are more trouble than they are worth. Well, I enjoy learning about all this and appreciate your patience. I will be investigating the septic area for a clean out. I had to rig up some hoses so I could do the laundry today. That all came out ok. Best wishes.

[LazyPup]

Perhaps now you are beginning to see why the Plumbing Apprenticeship is four years of on the job experience plus four years of College in night school.

You don't necessarily need to use the purple cleaner. The purple cleaner is the same as the clear cleaner, but they put the purple dye in it so an inspector can be sure that cleaner was used on the joint prior to gluing.

When you are selecting your cleaner and glue just be sure to read the label and make sure it is listed as approved for PVC.

Heres another couple tips to help you locate your materials at the hardware store.

PVC pipe and fittings are made in two varieties. Pressure fittings are used for water supply and DWV (Drain, waste, Vent) fittings are used on drains and vents. (DWV fittings are also called sanitary fittings)

Pressure fittings will have sharp corners on the elbows and Tees while DWV fittings will have a radius curve. To make it easier to identify them pressure fittings are listed by the degree of angle while DWV fittings are listed by a fraction of a circle, thus a right angle pressure elbow would be properly called a 90deg Elbow while a right angle DWV fitting is called a 1/4bend. (90deg = 1/4 of a circle)

Hardware and home supply stores commonly carry Schedule 40, schedule 80 and DWV pipe. The term schedule refers to the wall thickness of the pipe and consequently the maximum pressure and temperature rating of the pipe, the higher the number the thicker the pipe wall.

DWV pipe is usually used for drains because it is lighter weight and a bit cheaper, but all three are suitable for Drains.

You must be careful when installing the pipe because the code specifies it must be postition so the writing on the pipe is readily available for inspection. That means when you are running it agaist a wall the writing should be on the outside facing you. When running in a trench the writing must be on the top of the pipe.

The code prohibits using metal strapping or hangers to support plastic pipe. You can get formed J-hook hangers, strap hangers or PVC strapping to support the pipe.

Do not let the ppl in the hardware substitute ABS fittings. The code prohibits directly gluing dissimilar plastics.

[fauxplumber]

LazyPup! Could I tie the washer drain line into the tub drain instead of going through the block wall and doing all the outside stuff. It is a 1970s era cast iron tub with a shower plumbed in. There is access to this area. I can see the overflow drain which is cast metal (Unfortunately not plastic). It looks like it is only 1 1/2 in. Could I tie into the bottom of the overflow? I am not sure how large the actual drain is as it is in concrete. Would this just fill up my bath tub with wash water? Just a thought! I guess you can tell I am dreading the outside job.

[fauxplumber]

I appreciate the new info on the piping. It will certainly help me on my next visit to the hardware store. I do appreciate all that it takes to be a plumber. You have my respect. You are obviously very intelligent and a fabulous teacher. I was so lucky to find you.

[LazyPup]

You would not be able to use the tub drain because the code minimum for a laundry standpipe is 2" and tub drains are 1-1/2.

Do not fear the outside work,it is the easy part.

[fauxplumber]

Hi LazyPup, How can I drop this washer drain below grade? The floor of the house sits about 6 in. above outside grade. The floor is slab, the walls are concrete block? Since the drain will be starting at 6" above inside floor how can I get it below the exterior grade? It will only be traveling about 6 ft before it needs to exit the house . Thanks so much.

[LazyPup]

I had the side view in my last illustration but it was a bit confusing so here it is reworked a bit.

Notce that it must change to 3" at grade level.

Some jurisdictions will not permit external drain piping on a structure. In that case it can be done as shown but requires being boxed in and finished

[fauxplumber]

LazyPup, Sorry for the poor question. I did see the previous diagram and it was really fine. Sorry you had to do another one. I bet that takes some time and it is so kind of you to do that. I just had the idea that the portion that exits from the outside wall had to be underground. So it is ok to have a section exposed to the sun? Is it ok to have a 6 inch drop in a matter of 6ft travel of pipe ( from stand pipe to outside wall)? I still am making sure I have this all set up correctly. I looked at the pipe I have. They sold me 2"PVC Type 1 SCH 40 ASTM D-2665 NSF-dwv. I had already purchase the pipe before I read your post concerning types of pipe. Thanks again for your generous help. Best wishes

[LazyPup]

Not to worry my friend, In many cases creating or editing an illustration takes far less time than it would take to write a descriptive answer. By example, this illustration took under five minutes. Not only does the illustrations save me time, but i feel it conveys the information better than a long writting reply.

The pipe you have is perfect for this application.

I think you will find it difficult to get a 6" drop in 6' because that would be too much stress on the pipe and fittings. Given that you are installing an auxillary vent on the upstream end, you can now install an offset at any convenient place downstream of the vent connection. To do so use two 1/8 bends (45deg) with a short nipple between them.