Position of Hot & Cold Levers; diam of main line.

[Village Idiot]

Is there a standard configuration for the hot and cold faucett handles/levers? Our new home is a mixture of cold-on-the-left/hot-on-the-right...and...hot-on-the-left/cold-on-the-right. We have four bathrooms, some are cold on the left,...some are hot on the left. This is totally confusing to us, and guests. Does the Uniform Plumbing Code, or any other code stipulate which configuration is the correct way for hot and cold water handling at lavs?

The main water line into our 3,500 sq ft home is only a three-quarter inch pvc line. Are there any codes that stipulate ID of main line? I would have thought that a home of our size should have had at least a one inch, to one and a half inch main line in from the street...???

[LazyPup]

I am amazed that you water system passed inspection.

Both the International Residential Plumbing Code & the Uniform Plumbing code require the Cold on the Right and Hot on the Left (IRC 2722.2 & UPC 416.0).

This is considered a very major point for the very reason you mentioned. When guests or strangers are in the house and not familiar with reversed faucetts there is a very strong potential for scalding injuries. In my jurisdiction if an inspector finds the faucetts reversed he issues a citation that requires the problem to be corrected within 12 hours or you must vacate the structure until the necessary repairs have been made and inspected.

In regards to the size of you main water line, The codes have very specific tables to determine the size of all water lines, both the supply to the structure and the distribution within the structure.

A 3/4" line is code minimum to a residential structure and would normally be adequate for up to three bathrooms, but you stated you have four bathrooms.

If you could supply me more details on the overall configuration of the house, the relative point where the water enters the house, and the type of fixtures in each bathroom, kitchen, laundry and other water demand areas I would be glad to work it up and post an example for how the demand should be calculated.

[SSN596]

If your home is 30+ years old, the 3/4" line would not be unusual, but even at that time good trade practice would have been to use 1". If it is newer than that, somebody really fouled up. Probably the same person who could not even take the trouble to get hot and cold straight.

Regarding the showers and tubs, on some brands, a simple reversal of the cartridge is all it takes to set it right. On others, it would involve getting at the piping inside, hopefully from the BACK side of the wall.

[Village Idiot]

Thanks for the feedback. We think the plumber was a total idiot. This is not an unusual situation in the rapidly growing area in which we have built...knowledgeable plumbers are hard to find here,..I think our builder hired whoever was cheapest...arrgh.

The water enters the home near the garage entrance to the home, at one end. The house is a sprawling " V " shape (think Stealth Bomber).

The utility room nearest the garage, does not have a sink...only washer/dryer setup. Out of the four baths, only one, the powder room, has a sink & toilet. The other three baths all have showers, lavs, and toilets. One room is a completely separate "mother-in-law suite" with extra sink in a "kitchenette", in addition to the other standard plumbing amenities. There are no jet tubs/whirlpools, or hot tubs within the structure.

The home is less than one year old.

Does this help? Our water pressure is also extremely high 88 psi to 92 PSI,and the idiots did NOT put a Pressure Reducing Valve between the main in the street, and house. All of this was supposedly inspected...how can these plumbers bypass codes, when inspected.??!!

[LazyPup]

Based upon the information you provided I have computed the total load calculation for the structure.

The code defines the pipe from the municipal water source or well to the main water shutoff where the main line enters the structure as the SUPPLY LINE.

All piping within a structure are classified as DISTRIBUTION PIPING.

Step One, From the architectural prints we determine the type of loads and use tables in the code to determine the FIXTURE LOAD VALUE for each demand location. (See Illustration below)

WE must then know the length of the run from the municipal water source or well to the structure and the supply pressure.

The lenght of run computations remain constant up to 100' so for the illustration I will assume a 100' maximum from municipal source to the house MAIN WATER SHUTOFF.

You stated the pressure is 80+ so we will use the 60+ portion of the table (the table lists30-45psi, 46- 60psi and over 60psi)

For Supply piping the table lists 3/4" pipe at 60+psi up to 100' the maximum fixture unit load is 20 fixture units.

From our calculation we got 24.1 fixture units.

A 1" Supply line up to 100' long with 60+psi is rated for up to 39 fixture units.

Therefore you main line should be a 1" line and the Water Meter should be a 3/4" meter.

If you currently have a 3/4" line in all probability you will have a 5/8" meter. (In order to insure accuracy a meter is always slightly smaller diameter than the supply line).

There are similar tables in the code to determine the load and lenght of all distribution lines within the structure. In order to compute the distribution line sizing i would need the building prints and line layout to determine the load on each branch.



IN regards to whether your plumber was a total idiot,,,You may be a lot closer to the truth than what you know. In some jurisdictions, such as Florida, where i took my training, a plumber is required to complete a state approved apprenticeship program. Basically he or she must work under a master 40 hours a week, attend an approved college night school course, and submit weekly time sheets to the State Apprenticeship board for a period of 4 years before he or she may apply to take the licensing exam. The apprenticeship board rules say you must complete a minimum number of hours on the job experience for both residential and commercial jobs in each of many categories..rough in, stack out, trim out, water mains, sewer mains, septic tanks & leachfields, lift stations, estimating, material specifications and supervising subordinates, etc.

By contrast, when i moved here to Ohio/W.Pennsylvania I found out all one needs to do to be a licensed Residential Plumber is obtain liability insurance, have workmans comp insurance (only if you employ 4 or more subordinates) and pay an annual fee to the municipality of between $60 and $120. In many areas if you only work outside the municipality in the rural areas there is no licensing requirements what-so-ever..Sadly many licensed plumbers in this region wouldnt know a plumbing code from the Morse code.

This problem is further exacerbated by the fact that permits and inspections are only required on New Construction. In most instances retro-fitting or additions go totally uninspected.

Now as if that were not problamatic enough, in some of the local communities, when they do require an inspection, the inspection is done by the fire dept. They check the batteries in the smoke detectors, make sure the bedroom windows will open and all plumbing fixtures actually deliver water when the faucett is turned on.

It is for that reason that i always caution homeowners,,its a buyer beware market,,get plenty of references and check them thoroughly..When checking references ask the plumber where he or she learned the trade. I can tell you first hand, that I am not the least bit embarrassed when a customer asks for photo copies of my training certificates.

[Village Idiot]

Thanks, Lazy Pup, for all of your wonderful feedback. Your comments further support my theory that the plumber should put his pipe somewhere else.......

[LazyPup]

I should also add that the calculations were based upon the International Residential Code. The Uniform Plumbing code actually applies even higher fixture unit values for the fixtures while the pipe capacities remain nearly the same.

Also, both the codes state that if the supply pressure exceeds 80psi you are required to have a pressure regulating valve, and you must have an expansion tank installed on the cold water input line on the water heater.

[Village Idiot]

I am still concerned about the size of our supply line into our new home. Tommorrow, the idiot plumber comes back out to actually install a PRV,..like he should have, originally...YEAH. I don't trust this guy ..seems like a real nerd. Aren't PRV's adjustable?...Can the Village Idiot figure out how to adjust the water pressure to house, if the plumber does not set it correctly? We should aim for 45 to 60 psi???

We have a length of run, for the supply line, of about 200 feet..from meter at street, to home. Lazy Pup explained that the meter end is always slightly smaller than the diameter of the supply line. Am I right to assume, that this is a very short coupling, or fitting, right at the meter? The plumber made it sound like the pipe "necks down" in size a distance from the meter...implying that the buried line, closer to the home is a larger diameter. Shouldn't the supply line be the SAME diameter ALL the way to the meter box??? Should I dig/expose the line back for a couple feet? Help.............arrrgh...

[Village Idiot]

If we have a PRV installed, and regulate the water pressure down to 45 to 60 psi, do we still need and expansion tank on the cold water input line on the water heater? Doesn't a PRV calibrated to be below 60 psi, eliminate the need for such a tank? If we go too low on setting the incoming psi, will it affect our recirculating hot water system? Will the last bath on the line in this looong single story home, have a drop in pressure? (I said I was the Village Idiot!)

[LazyPup]

Before we install a water system we first make the computations as above to determine the required size of the main line. We then contact the water supplying agency to find out what the required "Water Meter Fitting Allowance" will be for the size of meter required per code spec.

In your case we determined it was a 1" line, and a 3/4" meter.

The water company will then tell us the minimum overall length clearance they will need to install a 3/4 meter, that is the fitting allowance.

The water line is then run from the municipal main to the structure, through a sleeve in the foundation wall and on to the "Main Water Shutoff Valve".

From the shutoff valve we then run the same size of water line to the Pressure regulating valve (When required) and to a "Water Meter Union Nut".

A gap equal to the "water meter fitting allowance" is then left open.

On the opposite end of the gap we install another water meter union nut and run the same size of pipe on to the junction of the HOT & Cold at the water heater.

Later when the water company teck installs the water meter he or she will select a meter that has an input and output line equal to our pipe size with an internal orifice to meet the meter size. In your case it should be a 1" input, 1" output and a 3/4" internal orifice.

if we were to only consider the diameter you could easily see that when comparing the 1" pipe you should have versus the 3/4" pipe you do have, one would be inclined to think your water supply is downsized 25%.

However, when computing the capacity of a water line we must consider the overall cross sectional area of the pipe rather than the diameter.

The mathematical formula to compare pipe capacity is:

Large Diameter Squared divided by Small Diameter squared.

Therefore when comparing a 1" pipe to a 3/4" pipe it is;

(1 x 1)/(.75 x .75) = 1 / 0.5625 = 1.77

This means that a 1" line has the same capacity as 1.77 lines of 3/4" or to put it another way, having a 3/4" line has downsized your required capacity by about 45%.

I would be inclined to contact the local zoning authority to find out if this installation was properly inspected, and if so, how did it pass without have a code minimum supply line.

In regards to the Expansion tank. The code stipulates that in instances where the supply pressure will exceed 85psi you are required to have both a Pressure Regulating Valve and an Expansion tank on the water heater. (The purpose of the expansion tank is to protect the system in the event the PRV would malfunction.

The bolt extending out of the top of the PRV is an adjustment screw that presses against an internal diaphram. Screwing the set screw in (clockwise) increases pressure, while screwing it out (counter-clockwise) reduces the pressure.

[Village Idiot]

Thanks, again, LazyPup for your wonderful feedback...although some of this hovers a bit over my plumbing-impaired brain. Interesting..how much water capacity is lost, reducing from a 1" pipe to 3/4" pipe. And now, I also undestand why an expansion tank would be required, at pressure over 85 psi.

I haven't seen the PRV as yet...Mr. Plumber declined to show up today..grrr. (I think he is afraid of me?.....).

Your image doesn't look exactly like the meter, etc, we have, but I will go inspect with more scrutiny. It sounds like you are suggesting that the PRV be installed at the "main water shutoff" at the HOUSE..?? The water company guy said that it may be easier to install all in the box at the STREET, going off from their meter at a right angle, down towards the ground (there is quite a bit of room in the box, meter is "up in the air" a ways). Does any of this make sense?

Getting further in over me head....I am only a dumbe blonde........

[LazyPup]

The Pressure reducing valve should be located between the municipal water line and the water meter. In the illustration i provided the water meter is located inside the house in a basement, therefore the PRV is immediately in front of the Meter.

If your meter is located in a meter box near the street then obviousely the proper location for the PRV would be at the meter location.

Whether the water meter is located inside the house or in a meter box outside is usually determined by the type of winter conditions you have. In areas where they commonly have cold winters the meters are placed in the house to prevent freezing.

In most areas where the meters are now placed in the house, they use a remote reading meter. The remote reading meters are nearly the same as a conventional meter but they also have a small digital sending unit attached to the meter head and an electrical cable is then run outside the house to an electronic coupling unit. The meter reader then presses his or her reading device against the coupler and it remotely reads the meter directly into their recording device.

In some localities they have remote sensing meters that are connected to the telephone line, and they can remotely read your meter via a computer link from the water company office without even sending a meter reader around.

Also, many water companies have now reduced there meter reading staff by using estimated meter readings. If you suspect you are getting estimated readings it is a good practice to occassionally check the numbers listed on your bill against the actual meter reading. If you not a substantial difference you should call for a physical confirmation on the billing.