Kitchen sink plumbing

[kactuskid]

I'm in need of a bit of advise. The picture below is what I'm dealing with. I'm not replacing the drain piping, only the water supply piping and isolation valves.

There are alot of leaking solder joints from this older installation and I need to replace it. Since there's not much room under this sink I was hoping I could get away with not having to solder.

So, could I use copper pipe and attach it with compression fittings. I'll have to cut the supply lines on the vertical where they come down from above and bend a piece of copper to make the turn to horizontal and then attach some risers before the iso valves. And what is your opionion on the mini risers that are sold nowadays.

Or, could I install CPVC instead? And if this is an appropriate way how do I transition from the copper to the CPVC. And, what type of riser would I then use.

One concern is that since the water supply lines come in vertically from the back, all of the piping is just free hanging and not attached to any studs. Is CPVC strong enough for this application?

Any help would be appreciated, along with any advise on items I left out. Thanks.

[LazyPup]

You problem appears to have a simple solution, however I would need a bit more information before i can offer you a working game plan.

In the picture there appears to be a Tee directly behind the angle stop valve with a line running down from the horizontal pipe. What are those tee's for? Could it be that this is your water supply coming up from a basement or crawspace and the pipes rising vertically in the wall are going up to a bathroom on the next floor?

Directly behind the Tee's there is a copper pipe rising vertically. Are those mini water hammer arrestors? (Stubbed up about 6" and closed on top?")

[kactuskid]

Hi Lazypup and thanks for your interest. Those arrestors are at least a foot long and maybe longer, the tops are hidden up behind the back of the cabinet.

Here's the deal with those tees you question. The one on the left side has a copper/steel transition fitting on it. Then a piece of galvanized pipe is screwed in vertically, connects to an elbow and then a short horizontal piece of galvanized connected to the other side of the elbow. Then a valve attached to the end of the pipe. The end of the valve fed an old rubber dishwasher supply line.

I planned on replacing all of this by just installing a double ported iso valve on the hot water supply so one side can feed the kitchen faucet and the other side feed the dishwasher. Though I'm not sure if CPVC has a valve like this.

The tee on the right side also has a copper/steel transistion fitting on the end of it and then a steel plug is installed in the end. Don't have any idea what that was used for.

Great observation on the tees, though the water supply lines do in fact come down vertically from behind the cabinet and feed into the water hammer arrestors first. And since there's a window above the sink it's amazing to me how they feed down, but I can't see the exact routing since the cabinet is blocking everything.

[LazyPup]

I would suspect that both the hot and cold lines had the additional tee taps to make supplies for a Dishwasher off the hot side and perhaps a refrigerator ice maker on the cold side. We are about to eliminate that mess.

You stated that you intend to connect a dishwasher and no doubt you also have an icemaker so we should make provisions for those two items, which we can do by installing the side outlet (double port)angle stop valves as you suggested.

Both a dishwasher and an icemaker have electrically operated solenoid valves, which are classified as fast acting valves, to control their water supply. The codes now require that we install water hammer arrestors in the near proximity of all "Fast Acting Valves" so we will retain the water hammer arrestors.

To transition from copper to CPVC you would need to first install a Copper x CPVC union or a Female copper thread adapter and use a CPVC male thread adapter to connect the CPVC. The code prohibits using compression fittings in concealed locations so whichever material you choose you will still need to make at least one solder joint on each of the hot and cold water lines, but not to worry, i have a game plan that should make that very easy for you.


Before you begin, turn the house "Main Water Supply Valve" or a zone valve off to stop the water supply to these lines. Place a container under the angle stop valves and open the valves to drain the water out of the pipes.

Fortunately the water supply is coming down from overhead, so once the main water valve is turned off and the lines drained you can cut the lines without making a mess and the vertical drop will clear so you will not have the problem of standing water in the line that would make soldering difficult.

I would then prefab the stubout, water hammer arrestor and a short vertical stub up to the point were you intend to connect to the water lines on a bench were it is easy to do. Prefab one for both the hot and cold water lines, then all you will need to do is make one solder joint on each line under the sink.

The copper lines coming down are quite long and not well supported so you should be able to carefully spring them out away from the wall while soldering. There appears to be ample insulation in the wall so the risk of fire is greatly diminished, but just to be safe you can quickly make a heat shield for the soldering process. Take an empty 3lb coffee can and cut both ends out, then split it down one side and open it up so it can be slipped behind the joint to prevent the torch flame from hitting the insulation or studding while soldering.

Thoroughly clean the end of the stub up on your prefab section and the end of the water line where you cut it, then apply flux with a flux brush. Connect both lines together with a copper coupling and solder it in place.


NOTE: Do Not install the angle stop valves until after you make the final solder connection. By leaving the end of the pipe open it will provide a vent in case there is an residual water in the line that could cause steam pressure.


When soldering begin by applying heat to both the pipes and the coupling to preheat, then apply the tip of the torch flame to the coupling only as you apply the solder. The moment the solder begins to flow you should be able to pull the torch flame back and continue feeding solder until you have a good fill of solder completely around the fitting. Use a wet rag to wipe the excess solder and flux off the joint, then do the second line and your done.

The stub outs for the angle stop valves will be outside the finish wall in an exposed location so you may use the compression type angle stop valves. I would suggest using the compression type angle stops so if your configuration changes in future and you no longer need the dual port type valves you can change the valves without soldering.

[kactuskid]

So even though this location is accessible I still can't use a compression fitting on the supply lines? OK, I like your idea of preassembly. I'm wondering if I can use those mini arrestors with CPVC piping. I've seen the mini's that have compression fittings or solder fittings but not CPVC. Would/could I use a transition fitting on these as well? It's looking like copper may be the only way to go here and have everything work well.

I do have one of those gray cloth heat sheilds, would that work instead of the can? And, should I leave the insulation all right there when I solder and just put the cloth in front of it.

Thanks.

[LazyPup]

If that wall space is going to permanently remain open you could use the compression fitting but if you intend to put sheetrock over it you can't.

If you have the heat shield cloth that would work excellant in this application. (I have a couple of those clothes but I can never seem to find them when i need one.....Hehehehehe)

You could use the manufactured mini-hammer arrestors, but they cost $6 each and you can create exactly the same effect with a tee, a cap and 6" or 8" of copper pipe, which you probably already have laying about in your misc. junk box.

You could use either copper or PVC and for most people the choice would come down to how comfortable you are with soldering versus glueing joints. In this case I dont think you would save either time or an appreciable amount of material cost by using CPVC and in the end copper is a much more durable material.

i know you are an electrician so let us think of this in electrical terms for a moment. When running a 15A general lighting circuit in a residential structure we may use awg 14/2 WG whereas in commercial 12/2 Wg would be the minimum wire guage. In my estimation when one considers the cost of a 250' roll of awg 12 as opposed to awg 14 wire the lighter guage is a false economy. The same is true of CPVC versus copper.

[kactuskid]

I'm going to my plumbing supply house in the morning and will let you know how it all shakes out. I'm pretty sure copper will be the material of choice here. I really appreciate all of your time and advice, you've been a great help. Thanks.

[kactuskid]

Thought I'd finally get back around to giving an update on the sink plumbing. I did end up using copper for the pipes, but instead of soldering my plumbing supply house showed me a new type of fitting they said was ANSI approved for use called a Sharkbite. Using a few of these fittings allowed me to quickly assemble all of the pieces parts and install the entire plumbing in less than an hour. They're a bit pricey and should come down in price once others copy the design. Here's a link to more details about them:

http://www.cashacme.com/sharkbite.html

I only installed one arrestor since a icemaker line will never be used in this home per the owner. And then I installed a compression type double ported 1/4 turn iso valve to feed the faucet and the dishwasher, and a single ported compression type 1/4 turn valve on the cold water line. Here's a picture of the installation:

[img]http://www.digistash.com/data/4e0928de075538c593fbdabb0c5ef2c3/673_p90062.jpg
[/img]

Thanks a ton Lazy Pup for all your time and knowledge, it's greatly appreciated.

[kactuskid]

[quote]Originally posted by kactuskid

Thought I'd finally get back around to giving an update on the sink plumbing. I did end up using copper for the pipes, but instead of soldering my plumbing supply house showed me a new type of fitting they said was ANSI approved for use called a Sharkbite. Using a few of these fittings allowed me to quickly assemble all of the pieces parts and install the entire plumbing in less than an hour. They're a bit pricey and should come down in price once others copy the design. Here's a link to more details about them:

http://www.cashacme.com/sharkbite.html

I only installed one arrestor since a icemaker line will never be used in this home per the owner. And then I installed a compression type double ported 1/4 turn iso valve to feed the faucet and the dishwasher, and a single ported compression type 1/4 turn valve on the cold water line. Here's a picture of the installation:

[img]http://www.digistash.com/data/4e0928de075538c593fbdabb0c5ef2c3/673_p90062.jpg
[/img]

Thanks a ton Lazy Pup for all your time and knowledge, it's greatly appreciated.

I can't figure out why the picture doesn't show. I clicked on the IMAGE button above and inserted the url same as before, but for some odd reason it's not showing. Then when I click on the red x to go to properties, I notice that there is a wierd extension attached after jpg. that I didn't copy into the page. Any ideas what's happening here, kinda wierd.

[kactuskid]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by kactuskid

Originally posted by kactuskid

Thought I'd finally get back around to giving an update on the sink plumbing. I did end up using copper for the pipes, but instead of soldering my plumbing supply house showed me a new type of fitting they said was ANSI approved for use called a Sharkbite. Using a few of these fittings allowed me to quickly assemble all of the pieces parts and install the entire plumbing in less than an hour. They're a bit pricey and should come down in price once others copy the design. Here's a link to more details about them:

http://www.cashacme.com/sharkbite.html

I only installed one arrestor since a icemaker line will never be used in this home per the owner. And then I installed a compression type double ported 1/4 turn iso valve to feed the faucet and the dishwasher, and a single ported compression type 1/4 turn valve on the cold water line. Here's a picture of the installation:


Thanks a ton Lazy Pup for all your time and knowledge, it's greatly appreciated.

I can't figure out why the picture doesn't show. I clicked on the IMAGE button above and inserted the url same as before, but for some odd reason it's not showing. Then when I click on the red x to go to properties, I notice that there is a wierd extension attached after jpg. that I didn't copy into the page. Any ideas what's happening here, kinda wierd.

[LazyPup]

Thank you so much for posting a final follow up. That is really a great job, you should be proud of it.