water supply line leaks after fill valve replacement

[karolion]

I purchased a new construction home in April 2003. It has two bathrooms with identical toilets, crappy Crane models. After 1 and 1/2 years living alone and 1 and 1/2 with husband the rubbery garbage tie(or looks like the garbage ties that came with heavy duty garbage bags in the 80's and early 90's) that connects the outer flush lever to the flapper has broken off the flapper in both toilets. Since it is 1 piece construction I knew I had to replace at least the flapper, however when I went to local home improvement warehouse I bought a combo fill valve kit just in case I needed to do more than change out flapper. We live in an area where the closest home improvement supply is 25-30 minutes away. I have had trouble with these toilets constantly leaking water(at a very, very slow rate, as even my husband says he can't hear the leak) since at least 6 months after I bought the house. From what I have learned since I have tried to fix both toilets it seems a new flapper and a good cleaning at the seal would fix the running water problem. Unfortunately toilet #1 was the guinea pig on which I tried to replace the fill valve and flapper and now I have a leak near the water shutoff between the bottom of the water supply pipe and the connection near the knob that shuts off the water. I removed this piece of pipe to try to get the old water connector off the pipe so I could replace it with the one that came with the kit. The old one barely comes off and the new one has too small of a hole to fit over either end of the water supply pipe. I put the old one back on, hooked everything up to test and the leak is at the connection from the supply pipe to the shutoff valve. Do I need to add some dope to this connection? Do I need to buy a replacement pipe? I hate these Crane toilets. The old fill valve is beyond repair and the screws to it were corroded pretty badly anyway. I would even be willing to put in a new toilet(water closet) as toilet #1 is assymetrical at the bottom and the nuts and bolts in the tank are very badly rusted(is this normal to be so rusty?). The date stamped on the tank lid is December 2002, so they are not that old, just poor quality. Thanks for any help.

[LazyPup]

By Industry Standard the input connection to the watercloset supply valve is a "Cone Washer" connection held in place by a Ballcock Nut and the bottom of the supply tube is connected to the "Angle Stop Valve" by means of a compression fitting.

While the type of connection is set by industry standard there are primarily three different types of materials used to make the supply tube and the actual method of connection is determined by which type of material is selected.

The Traditional standard, and the one which presents the most professional looking final appearance, is the use of Chrome plated brass tubing. Typically it will be 3/8" diameter chrome plated brass tubing although 1/4" diameter may be used in special applications where the static head supply pressure is equal to or greater than 60psi and additional pressure reduction is recommended to prolong the life of the fill valve.

Normally the watercloset fill valve will not be directly above the angle stop valve, but rather, there will be a slight offset from a true vertical line. The supply tube MUST BE vertical when it enters both the watercloset supply and the angle stop valve so it is customary to form a slight S shape in the tubing to make the offset.

To connect the tubing to the watercloset supply you first remove the watercloset supply "Ballcock Nut" and slip in on the tubing with the open threaded side upwards. You then select a flat brass friction washer with an inside opening equal to the tubing size and drop it into the ballcock nut. A rubber Ballcock cone washer is then placed on the end of the copper tubing with the flat side down and the rounded side upwards. You then press the tubing up into the watercloset supply tube and hold it in place as you slide the ballcocknut up and screw it tightly in place on the end of the watercloset fillvalve. As you tighten the nut the rubber cone washer is compressed into place making a water tight seal.

To make the connection to the angle stop you begin by removing the compression nut on the angle stop output port. Under the nut there is a compression ferrule (looks like a miniature mans wedding ring). The nut is slid up on the tubing, then the compression ferrule is slid on the end of the tubing and the tubing is fitted into the angle stop output port, then the nut is slide down and tightened in place. As the nut is tightened the brass compression ferrule is compressed into the tube wall slightly to form a tight seal. (Brass compression ferrules cannot be reused. When installing a new line you must use a new compression ferrule. Compression ferrules can be purchased in any hardware store for about $.05 or less)

The second choice for supply tubes and certainly the least expensive is the preformed gray polymer plastic supply tube. The preformed supply tubes have the cone washer preformed on one end of the tube but be careful when selecting these as there are two different sizes of cone washers, one for waterclosets and one for faucetts. Be sure to select a line for a watercloset. When you get the preformed plastic supply tubes they should come prepacked with a white Nylon compression Ferrule. Be sure not to loose that ferrule as you must use the synthetic ferrule on plastic tubing.

To install you begin by removing the ballcock nut from the supply valve, then slide the nut on the plastic supply tube. Insert the formed cone washer into the end of the watercloset supply valve and slide the nut up and screw it tightly in place. (If you have the brass friction washer you may use it but it is not really required.)

Measure the length of the tube to the angle stop and cut the tube to fit. (It is best to cut the tube about 1" longer and form a slight S offset. The slight bit of excess tubing will cause the tube to exert a slight pressure into the angle stop valve which helps to keep it tight and prevent it from being pulled out.)

Slide the angle stop compression nut up onto the plastic tube then slip the nylon compression ferrule on the end of the tube. Examine the nylon compression ferrule closely and you will see that it has a wedge shaped cross section where it is flat on one side and pointed on the other. The pointed side MUST point down towards the angle stop valve so when the nut is slid down the nut will hit the flat side and press the wedge into the valve as it is tightened. (Some supply tubes come with a brass insert tube. If you have the insert, after slipping the compression ferrule in place the brass insert tube is inserted into the plastic supply tube as far as it will go. The purpose of the brass insert is to prevent the plastic supply tube from collapsing when the compression nut is tightened. The use of the insert is determined by the composition of the plastic in the tube. If the manufacturer supplies the insert be sure to use it, otherwise you should be okay without it).

The third type of supply tube is the compete preformed tube assembly. These type will have a PEX or Vinyl hose with nuts preassembled on both ends. You simply remove the ballcock nut from the watercloset supply and discard it, then screw the large fitting on the supply tube on the water closet supply. You then remove both the compression nut and brass ferrule from the angle stop and screw the other end of the preformed supply tube directly on the angle stop. The fittings on both ends have preformed rubber gaskets inside to effect the proper seal.

Under no circumstances should you use any pipe dope, teflon tape or other sealants on supply tube fittings. The use of those materials will interfere with the proper sealing method and often will cause a leak.

[karolion]

thanks

I will get a new compression nut and try my luck this weekend. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thank you so much for taking the time to write detailed instructions on the different ways to fix this problem.

Also, I was wondering about the rust on the nuts and bolts that fasten the tank to the bowl. I know water causes most metals to rust, however if these connectors could be replaced or treated to eliminate or lessen the rust could you let me know? The rust has stained the bowl, which I have been able to remove with Whink, but I worry that the acid that removes the stains is not good for our septic system. We are on county water, not a well. Thanks.

[LazyPup]

Changing the compression nut will not resolve your problem. You can use the same compression nut but you must get a new compression ferrule which is the little brass sleeve that looks like a miniature mans wedding ring that fits under the nut. The problem here is that you will not be able to effectively get the old compression ferrule off the supply tube. I would suggest changing both the supply tube and the ferrule or simply getting a preformed supply line with the fittings already assembled on both ends.

In regards to the rust, I honestly don't understand that because all the metal fittings I have ever seen in a watercloset tank were made of brass which doesn't rust. Rust only occurs on metal which contains iron.