replacing hot water heater

[snowdog]

this is my first post up here - thanks for all the great info

i am interested in any advice/opinions on what is probably a common hot water problem

my house has a 14 year old hot water heater - "bradford white", 50 gallon, electric, 2 elements of 4500 watts, FHR=58 gallons

never had a problem with hot water until a few days ago, where i can no longer get more than about 3-4 minutes of hot water in the shower

i also can barely get enough hot water to do the dishes in the kitchen so i'm sure this is not just a problem with the shower

from what i've read up here (and elsewhere on the 'net), i believe that my problem is due to something wrong with the lower heating element - either the element itself is broken, the thermostat that controls it has something wrong with it, the wiring down there has gotten bad, or something like that

with the key thing being *probably* that it could be fixed (at an unknown cost)

BUT - since my heater is 14 years old, that it would not pay me to even get it looked at and instead just replace it - YES/NO???

which leads me to questions about buying a new one (assuming that i replace it)

....from what i've been reading, it pays to spend a little more and get a heater with a longer warranty since they are usually "better", not just in how long they last, but in how well they work, how they are designed, the components that they come with (elements, insulation, construction), in how much hot water they can deliver, things like that - YES/NO??

....so if i have it replaced, in general is it ok pricewise/qualitywise for the installation to go with a department store, home improvement center etc where i buy a new one, or is it "better" (cheaper/warranty/less hassles) to go with a smalltime plumber? i realize my experience could vary widely from anyone else's but i'm still interested in hearing what people have to say - btw i have none of the skills or tool to install a new one myself

....also, any tips in general to recommend regarding replacing a heater? things to look for, to avoid, etc?

....and here's a question specific to my house - my finished basement utility room (which has the heater + washer/dryer etc) has no sink or "drain" in it per se - the washer actually drains into a pipe about 8 feet up in the air! (i have no idea how that is able to work but somehow it does) - so how can my old heater be emptied properly? doesn't it have to be drained via a hose at a lower elevation that it is?? i'm thinking of a possible nightmare scenario here of wondering how it can get emptied out

thanks for any advice!

[pushkins]

Before you do anything have you checked to see if the H20 heater is full of water ? Some over time will lose the water level.

First of all to empty the old heater attach a hose to the drain at the bottom of the tank, run it to a floor drain and open the valve.

As to replace or not replace the 14 year old one...in a word yes.
At 14 years old it has reached or is nearing quickly it's retirement.
The cost of a serviceman coming out might be $100 to start before any repair costs and parts a new good heater will be around $250

Consumer Reports actively give details that most H2O heater lifespan is in reality 8-14 years depending on brand and model, anything older is well on it's way to needing replacement.
They also state that when buying a h2o heater that the longer the warranty the generally better the heater is, basically they say your paying to save money as in any particular brand a 6 - 10 - 12 year warranty basically means better insulation for the most, they say that there are some minor other changes, but nothing significant enough to effect the overall longevity of the model.
They do recommend that you buy the longest warranty that the brand your interested in has eg: 12 year.

As for installation I know Sears charge around $250 to do a basic install as do H.Depot and Lowes (around my neck of the woods anyway), make a couple of calls to licenced plumbers in your area I'm sure you can find a good one at a reasonable rate.

[snowdog]

Before you do anything have you checked to see if the H20 heater is full of water ? Some over time will lose the water level.

no i did not do that - how do i do that? i'm 100% clueless about this kind of thing

First of all to empty the old heater attach a hose to the drain at the bottom of the tank, run it to a floor drain and open the valve.

that's why i asked the question - BECAUSE I HAVE NO FLOOR DRAIN :-(

NO SINK :-(

NO NOTHING TO DRAIN THE THING INTO DOWN HERE!!! except for the hookup that the washing machine goes into, which is roughly 8 feet up in the air

how will it be possible to drain the heater under these circumstances??? anybody??


btw, i bought this townhouse brand new in 1992, and had NUMEROUS problems with the builder - he got away with murder again and again, not just with me, but everybody that lives in this neighborhood - there were alot of shady things that went on, and i would not be surprised if there were some major deficincies, things not done to "code" that i don't know about (for instance it was a year after i moved in that i found out that he had not even installed a WATER METER!!! which didn't please the water company too much)

perhaps not having a "floor drain" in the basement is something he "forgot" to do

anyways - thanks for your comments :-)

[pushkins]

Is this heater in a basement or a 1st floor ?

If it is in a basement then code says a basement needs either a sump pump or a floor drain. If you have a sump pump you could always drain it into that.
If it is on a first floor or higher you could attach a hose and run the hose outside via a door or a window.

On the top or side of the h20 tank you will see a small lever called a pressure relief valve, carefully flip this lever open and if the tank is full water will come out of the overflow valve which should have a pipe attached to it (roughly 6" from the gound) almost immediately ( NOTE : be carefull doing this as the water will be HOT). If it runs for a time before overflowing then your tank was down in it's water level.

As you don't seem to have a basement drain make sure you have a bucket under it to catch any excess water.

To drain the tank before moving it , it looks like you will have to open the tank drain and try to drain it into a bucket. (If you get someone to install the new tank for you they should also drain and remove the old one)

[snowdog]

Is this heater in a basement or a 1st floor ?
If it is in a basement then code says a basement needs either a sump pump or a floor drain. If you have a sump pump you could always drain it into that.
If it is on a first floor or higher you could attach a hose and run the hose outside via a door or a window.

it's in my basement

btw, it is a fully enclosed basement, not a walkout, and has no windows, and is finished with drywall, flooring, and heating ducts, etc

there is no drain down here that i am aware of, and definitely no sump pump

looks like i am just now discovering yet one more thing that builder screwed me over with...sigh...

On the top or side of the h20 tank you will see a small lever called a pressure relief valve, carefully flip this lever open and if the tank is full water will come out of the overflow valve which should have a pipe attached to it (roughly 6" from the gound) almost immediately ( NOTE : be carefull doing this as the water will be HOT). If it runs for a time before overflowing then your tank was down in it's water level.
As you don't seem to have a basement drain make sure you have a bucket under it to catch any excess water.

oh jeez

looking at it now i believe i am totally screwed

i see the "pressure release valve" which is on top of the unit

it is attached to copper tubing which goes behind the unit, and ends in midair about 12 inches off the ground in the back

that area in the back is about 3-4 inches of clearance from the back wall

there is no way to squeeze anything in back there under the tubing to catch water so i'm not going to be doing this test!


it really looks like to me this has been a disaster in the making all these years

there is no drain for the heater to overflow into should it's pressure release system engage for whatever reason - water will just pour out in the back all over the floor and onto the drywall

and also because there is no drain, there is no way to empty the heater for when it has to be replaced

this is going to be a nightmare....i'll probably need a hole/drain dug in there now? jesus ffffffking christ

maybe i can figure out what the washer is draining into, that must be hooked up to my sewer line or something (???), maybe that is accessible with a hose somehow to use for the heater

thanks for your time pushkins

[snowdog]

oops, i 4got to comment on this point

To drain the tank before moving it , it looks like you will have to open the tank drain and try to drain it into a bucket. (If you get someone to install the new tank for you they should also drain and remove the old one)

man that's going to be fun (NOT!)

carrying 50 gallons of water up the steps one bucket at a time? sigh

maybe i can make my builder do it at gunpoint

[Hube]

Sowdog; First, are you positive that your tank problem is not because of a "worn or broken "DIP TUBE"? when a dip tube is broken ,the incoming cold water cannot enter at a low level in the tank and so it enters at a high level, thus cooling off the outgoing hot water. Dip tubes are inexpensive and only take less than a half hour to install.
btw, if you have no floor drain, in order to empty your tank, why not just buy a $ 8. drill pump(attaches to ordinary household drill) and connect your garden hose to it. A drill pump could empty a 50 gallon tank in approx 15 minutes.

[LazyPup]

First of all let me clarify one point in the previous posts. It is a physical impossibility for a water heater installed in a basement to not be full of water.

Emptying the water heater is very easy, you need a pump that can be connected to a garden hose.

WAYNE PUMP co. makes a small centrifigal utility pump that has a garden hose thread on both the input and output and it has a 1/4" diameter power input shaft. After you connect the pump to the water heater and a garden hose to drain the water up to the sink or outside, you then attach an ordinary electric drill motor to the power input shaft to power the pump.

You will need a short length of hose with a female garden hose thread on each end to connect the pump to the water heater drain valve. Rather than buy or make a hose for this you can disconnect one of the water hoses from your washing machine and use that long enough to drain the water heater then replace it back on the washing machine.

These pumps can be purchased at almost all hardware or home supply centers for about $8 to $10. (They are commonly used to drain water beds but will work in any application that requires hose fittings.)

I have checked a number of my catalogs and the have not been able to locate a Part # from Wayne Pumps. They simply list it as;

Wayne Drill-Driven Utility Pump.

I did find it listed in my Home Depot contractors catalog under part number 130514 but that is a stock number exclusive to Home Depot. I don't mean to imply an endoresment of Home Depot for you can find these pumps in all hardware stores. I just offer this number as a convenience to help you locate the type of pump.

I have been using these pumps to drain water heaters for years and have found that they work very good. Typically you can drain a 50 gallon water heater in about 10 minutes. (You must be sure you turn the cold water supply valve to the water heater off and open a faucett to drain as much water from the house hot water system as possible before running the pump. Also, you must keep the faucett open to permit air to vent into the water heater while draining.

[snowdog]

Sowdog; First, are you positive that your tank problem is not because of a "worn or broken "DIP TUBE"? when a dip tube is broken ,the incoming cold water cannot enter at a low level in the tank and so it enters at a high level, thus cooling off the outgoing hot water. Dip tubes are inexpensive and only take less than a half hour to install.

no, i am not positive that the problem is not due to the "dip tube" - until now i have never even heard of such a thing

it sounds though like that fits in with the equation of "it might be possible to repair but the cost to have it diagnosed/repaired isn't worth doing since it is 14 years old and like to fail in some other way soon anyways"

??

if i were a handyman, knew anything about anything, could do this type of thing meself i'd be alot better off and able to check some of this stuff (the dip tube, the thermostat, the heating elements, the wiring, etc), but since i am a clutzy good for nothing UNhandy person i would need to get a plumber or similar person to check any of this, and i suspect the costs of that won't be worth it (in light of the heater already being older than its shelf life?)

btw, if you have no floor drain, in order to empty your tank, why not just buy a $ 8. drill pump(attaches to ordinary household drill) and connect your garden hose to it. A drill pump could empty a 50 gallon tank in approx 15 minutes.

thanks, i didn't know that was an option....i'm learning....whew....so it sounds like at least as long as i explain all this to whomever is going to do the installation of a new heater, and removal of the old one, that they should be able to assure me that they have a pump or similar thing to take care of emptying the old one b4 they come out here

THANKS again everybody

[snowdog]

Emptying the water heater is very easy, you need a pump that can be connected to a garden hose.

WAYNE PUMP co. makes a small centrifigal utility pump that has a garden hose thread on both the input and output and it has a 1/4" diameter power input shaft. After you connect the pump to the water heater and a garden hose to drain the water up to the sink or outside, you then attach an ordinary electric drill motor to the power input shaft to power the pump.

You will need a short length of hose with a female garden hose thread on each end to connect the pump to the water heater drain valve. Rather than buy or make a hose for this you can disconnect one of the water hoses from your washing machine and use that long enough to drain the water heater then replace it back on the washing machine.

These pumps can be purchased at almost all hardware or home supply centers for about $8 to $10. (They are commonly used to drain water beds but will work in any application that requires hose fittings.)

I have checked a number of my catalogs and the have not been able to locate a Part # from Wayne Pumps. They simply list it as;

Wayne Drill-Driven Utility Pump.

I did find it listed in my Home Depot contractors catalog under part number 130514 but that is a stock number exclusive to Home Depot. I don't mean to imply an endoresment of Home Depot for you can find these pumps in all hardware stores. I just offer this number as a convenience to help you locate the type of pump.

I have been using these pumps to drain water heaters for years and have found that they work very good. Typically you can drain a 50 gallon water heater in about 10 minutes. (You must be sure you turn the cold water supply valve to the water heater off and open a faucett to drain as much water from the house hot water system as possible before running the pump. Also, you must keep the faucett open to permit air to vent into the water heater while draining.

thanks for that info!

i will look into getting some kind of pump like that regardless of whether i end up having to be the one to empty my old water heater

in the past there have been a few times where my basement has flooded out due to heavy rains, and i have had to make 20-30 trips up the steps carrying very heavy bucket loads of water that i've sucked up with my wet/dry vac; it would be nice to have an easier way of handling that should i flood out again

[LazyPup]

Those little drill powered pumps are excellant for emptying water heaters, hydronic boilers or water beds but they would not be suitable for pumping standing water out of a basement.

For pumping standing water you would need either a sump pump or a submersible utility pump.

Wayne pump company makes a number of submersible utility pumps that are set up with a 3/4" garden hose output as well as sump pumps. These type of pumps begin at about $45 and go up depending upon what you choose.

[snowdog]

Those little drill powered pumps are excellant for emptying water heaters, hydronic boilers or water beds but they would not be suitable for pumping standing water out of a basement.

For pumping standing water you would need either a sump pump or a submersible utility pump.

Wayne pump company makes a number of submersible utility pumps that are set up with a 3/4" garden hose output as well as sump pumps. These type of pumps begin at about $45 and go up depending upon what you choose.

i wasn't thinking of using a pump like that to pickup & empty the standing water, but to use that type of pump to empty out my wet/dry vac after it fills up, similar to the emptying out of the water heater idea

i know that i need to suck the standing water up first with the vac, but then thought i could use that type of pump to empty out what i've collected in the vac, through a hose going into the washer outlet way up on the wall, perhaps what will be done to empty my water heater

does that sound feasible?

of course i'm hoping i no longer will get any water down here (and haven't ever since my next door neighbors basement has been waterproofed), but in the past, i have had roughly 30-40 gallons of h2o to cleanup after some killer rains, which was alot of work just in the running up and down the steps carrying all that water

thanks again for the advice