Slow Leaking Water Heater

[Cmudr1]

Hello Everyone. Yesterday I went downstairs to find a steady stream coming from the water heater. Upon closer inspection it appeared that the top of tank was accumulating water and was trickiling down the side. Well I've cleaned all the areas where the pipes connect to the tank, which were covered with some serious dirt and rust, and dried everything off.

Today when I went down, found the same stream and noticed the top of water heater had some standing water on it. I also removed the blanket and found 2 small trickles coming from the crease from the upper rim and leaking down the side. I was able to patch those up with some compound and stop the leak, but now the top of tank seems to accumulate standing water in about an hour's time now. I thought it may be the fittings on the lines, but those are staying dry, and there is no leak from pressure valve or any cracks or anything.

It seems that the tank is getting too full and leaking out of the top somwhere(a crack I cant see). Does anyone have any ideas? We just bought this house in November and have found that most the appliances are shot, and a few other things need repair, ex. fireplace, chimney, garage door, leaking foundation. I wouldnt be surprised if I needed a new water heater, but I would like to not have to buy one till taxes next year. I have no idea how old it is, tag all corroded, but there is a Lot of rust and corrosion build up around.

All help and ideas are truly appreciated. Please help me save my water heater!

Chris

[Aurora]

It your water heater is covered in corrosion and rust and the label is unreadable then the chances are that it has never been maintained and that it is so old that it has failed. You will need to replace it.

[Cmudr1]

Thats what I expected, but I really cant afford to install a new one right now. I was hoping someone might have an idea of what exactly was wrong so I could extend its life at least for a couple months. The water heater itself seems to work perfect. Doesnt use that much gas and reheats fairly quickly. Im enclosing a couple pics to help illustrate what i mean. It seems that the front indention seems to fill first, so I'm thinking the pressure relief valve could be leaking or at least the threads on it. These pictures are taken after I cleaned the entire top of the heater too...it was Dirty.
Thx for the reply btw!
Chris

[mrcaptainbob]

Water Heater..

Yikes! LazyPup's gonna have a field day with this one! Looks like there's an iron pipe fitting between the tank and the copper. Is that true? If so, that could be the source of your problems. Galvanic action will corrode those fittings and cause leaks. If that's what they are, get some brass nipples the same size for replacements. Hopefully you'll be able to extract those fiitngs without them breaking off on the tank. There should also be copper unions leading off from the tank to provide a means of separating the tank from the plumbing. If they're not there, you should add them. Should also be some shutoffs after the unions, too. Ball valves are preferred, gate valves would work, too. The pics are a real help, by the way.

[Cmudr1]

"Yikes! LazyPup's gonna have a field day with this one!"
Man I know what you mean. Seems like everthing is turning out this way!

Ayways, ty for the reply it is somewhat helpfull, but not let me add a few things. The Leak on the "top" of the tank, seems to be coming from the pressure relief valve (fitting maybe). I cleaned all the water and then put paper towels in all 3 indentions. The only one that got wet was the front(pressure valve) which leads me to think that pipe fitting is going bad. Now the tank does slightly lean forward soo.. could it just be that's the lowest point?

As you said "Looks like there's an iron pipe fitting between the tank and the copper. Is that true?" which pipe are you exactly talking about? Do you mean the pipe on the left, the fittings on the front & right? Please a little detail is greatly appreciated.

I am fairly handy but this being our first house, this is also the first time I've encountered these problems and repairs.
Thanks again for all the replys and all your info has been VERY helpfull.
Chris

[LazyPup]

Good Morning Chris,,

I think we can all agree that there are a number of problems here, but we can also understand your desire to buy a bit more time to plug a new water heater into your budget rather than take on that expense unexpectedly right now. In order to gain the additional bit of time you desire you will have to make some minor concessions but only you can judge the final decision.

Dielectric nipples are about 3" long, so judging by the length of the nipples betweent the water heater vessel and the copper female adapter we can be sure they are not the required dielectric nipples. The reddish color of the corrosion on the cold water nipple would indictate they are probably "3/4 x close" galvanized iron pipe nipples. This presents two immediate problems, 1. the nipples are too short to permit getting a good grip on them with a pipe wrench so even under good circumstances changing them out could prove difficult and 2. Normally when iron pipe fittings corrode in that manner they tend to rust or fuse together as if welded and make removal nearly impossible.

Typically we would find the TPRV (Temperature & Pressure Relief Valve- commonly called T&P valve) on the top of an electric water heater and on the upper side of a gas water heater. The codes require the T&P to be located in the upper 6" of the storage vessel so either location does meet code compliance, however when installed on the top of a gas water heater they are left in the close proximity of the draft hood and under difficult conditions they can be influenced by heat escaping the draft hood causing a false discharge.

Under normal circumstances air enters the draft hood and reduces the stack temperature slightly to regulate the draft. The appearance of the black sooty buildup on the top of the draft hood immediately behind the T&P valve is indicating that combustion gasses are escaping out of the draft hood so the greater concern here is that you may have a serious problem with the pitch, length or overall condition of the flue and stack. In order to insure safety and prevent the possibility of carbon monoxide or flue gasses in the house that potential problem must be thoroughly checked immediately.

In your post you stated that the appearance of the leak is greatest in the vicinity of the T&P valve. For the short term you might try installing a 3/4" line from the T&P discharge port down to the floor. If the water is actually leaking from the T&P valve that would convey it away from the top of the water heater. This would also give you a good method of determining if the leak is originating from the T&P valve or the threaded mounts into the water heater tank at the T&P or the nipples. If you later discover it is the T&P valve that is leaking that can easily and relatively inexpensively be changed out. (Typically a T&P valve is slightly under $20 and a simple DIY changeout).

I would suggest you clean and dry the top as much as you can, then inspect it at 30 minutes or hour increments until you can be sure exactly where the leak is coming from and i would not be suprised to find that both those nipples are leaking slightly.

Once you know the origin and degree of the leak you can then make a more informed judgement about the urgency of changing the tank. You stated that the tank is setting slightly crooked and in the photo I can see some brickworks behind the tank which I am assuming might be the base of the chimney, therefore I am guessing this water heater is in an unfinished basement. If that is the case then the risk of this leak causing other property damage is very slight so you might be able to tolerate it for a short term until you can budget the changeout. The only caution I would offer here is keep in mind that this leak is not likely to go away, and it could become much worse at any moment so I would move the changeout to the top of your home improvement list and not delay any more than need be.

[Cmudr1]

TY for that detailed message. I do believe we will be replacing this heater come very shortly. You are right it is an unfinished basement and is fairly close to the drain so a minor leak not that big of concern. I have been monitoring it and trying to plug what seems to be all the holes and cracks, thought from old age and rust. In doing so there is always another small crack that becomes apparent. I have been noticing some steam now, that wasnt there before and seems to be coming from the threads on T&P and a bolt towards the back.

I have been trying to dry and identify the one leak, but seems to be leaking from EVERY hole there is in the tank...meaning the bolt holes for the hood, the crease where the top rim meets the side, the plastic plug o the top, etc.

It acts like its buiding to much pressure and forcing water out any possible spot. The t&p valve inside has remained dry the entire time and no water is coming from the pipes. It is all coming "out" of the water heater itself. I wasa able to try and read a date, which i believe said 1984 !

I definitely think a new heater is the very near future. Thanks for all the help and info. You guys are great

P.s. Way to go Lazypup, all that info from just that pic! WoW!!!

[Aurora]

I would follow LazyPup's advice and suggestions to the letter. There is a lot about your water heater installation that is defective.

In the future when you do replace your water heater you should also be sure to include a thermal expansion tank between the cold water line and the water heater. The lack of a thermal expansion tank could also be responsible for the leakage that you are experiencing in your current situation. The leak resulting from thermal expansion would cause regular discharge of water from the T&P valve.

Here is a link that will explain how a leak can occur without an expansion tank installed:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...c/1275476.html

[LazyPup]

I would suggest you use the time remaining to begin shopping around for your new water heater rather than wait till the last minute and have to purchase one in a limited time without opportunity to compare prices and features. By example, recently I had to change out a 30gal water heater. While 30 gallon water heaters were quite common 20 years ago, they are now rarely used in new construction so the availability is limited. As a result in order to get an exact replacement 30 gal unit we would have had to special order it and wait 5 days for delivery, whereas we could get a 40gal unit off the floor immediately for almost $40 less money. Some people might argue that the 40gal unit would require more fuel, but when you compare the differences in insulation and fuel efficiency of the new burners in my estimation the actual operating cost would work out nearly the same.

When comparing prices make sure you are comparing the same features. Obviously a stainless steel tank will have a much longer service life than a glass lined tank, however a recent article in consumer affairs states that across the board the average life of a glass lined water heater vessel is 12 to 14 yrs.

Quite often we will see water heaters listed with a 6yr warranty and for a bit more money you can get a similar unit with a 10yr warranty. In many cases the manufactures are relying upon the 12 yr statistical average and selling the exact same unit under both warranty plans, therefore the added cost of the higher warranty could be considered as little more than an insurance policy and has little to no influence on the actual quality of the product.

As you can see with the water heater you presently have, installation can be a major factor in the overall life of the unit.

Changing out a water heater is not a difficult job, and not one that would be beyond the abilities of a homeowner or DIY'er with moderate plumbing skills.

To give you some target figures on your changeout cost, typically you can buy a 40gal gas water heater in the $250 +/- $20 range. You should then allow another $25 to $30 for the necessary hardware and materials for the changeout. When buying check with the dealer as many new water heaters are now coming with the required "Dielectric Nipples" supplied with the heater so that would save about $10.

When shopping around be sure to check your local neighborhood hardware store. In my community I can buy a 40gal water heater at my local hardware for $30 less than the prices at Lowes or Home Depot and the hardware store will deliver it free.

Obviously installation costs will vary from one region to another, depending upon the local prevailing wage, but if you elect to do this as a DIY project post again and let me know and i will be glad to prepare you a step by step procedure checklist to help you insure it is done correctly and to code compliance. Let me know if you have soldering skills. If not, since this water heater is immediately accessible in a basement we can spec it with all mechanical joints and you would not need to make any solder joints.

[Cmudr1]

Wanted to Give everyone an update on this dang thing. Well, I t litteraly BLEW its lid today while I was at work. My first sign was this morning when my hot water stopped about 3 mins after I got in...but of course I was running late so I didnt go downstairs. When I came home, I had completely forgot till I went to wash my hands and no hot water.

I went downstairs to find my personal Sauna!! There was water Everywhere! It had leaked so much Hot water the steam was dripping off all the cold water lines in the house!

Upon making it to the water heater, after power shut off, I realized the rim where the lid met the sides had actually split open. It was pouring out like a waterfall!

Needless to say its being replaced early Sat morning, by my step dad and I. The total time from the first sign of a leak to complete Expolsion was about 10 days, max.

So just a little tip for anyone reading. If your tank is 23 years old, and water seems to leak from EVERY possible joint, I would say you have about 1 week to get it replaced!

Thanks everyone for the help and Lazypup we are going to install everything new starting from the tap coming off the main line and down, so if you have any tips or suggestions they would be extremely helpfull!
Thx Again, Chris

[LazyPup]

Like you, i had hoped that this tank would allow you a bit more time, but such is life in the plumbing business.

Before you begin your actual change out let us discuss some of the code requirements for your new water heater.

1. You are required to have a "Full Bore" type valve at or near the water heater on the cold water supply line. (My personal preference is a Ball Valve).

2. You must have unions on both the hot and cold water lines within 12" of the top of the water heater vessel. (The union must be between the shut off valve and the water heater vessel.)

3. You have copper pipes so you MUST HAVE dielectric nipples between the water heater steel vessel and the copper piping. (Check you new water heater packing because many now come supplied with the required dielectric nipples).

The dielectric nipples are made of galvanized iron pipe and have NPT (National Pipe Taper) male threads on each end. You will need either PIPE DOPE or 3 full wraps of YELLOW PTFE (teflon) tape. (Do not use the white teflon tape that is commonly sold in the hardware because that tape is not certified for threaded joints greater than 3/8".) In my personal opinion this is to be considered a permanent joint so PIPE DOPE would be the preferred method. You can buy a small 1oz tube of pipe dope that will be more than adequate for the installation. (When you first open the tube and squeeze the dope out you will note a bit of oil that comes out first. That is an oil from the dope that commonly separates out. Be sure to squeeze the tube to get that excess out out until you get a full flow of gray pipe dope.) Apply the dope liberally to the male threads of the dielectric nipple threads then insert the nipple and tighten it in place. (do not put dope in the female threads of the tank fitting)

HERES A TIP: it is very easy to damage the teflon or pipe dope seal when soldering the female adapter. I prefer to dry fit riser from the dielectric nipple to the union then take it off the tank and solder it on the side, allowing it to cool before actually applying the dope and assembling the riser. You will be able to screw the female adapter on the dielectric nipple, then make final connection by assembling the unions.

Your water heater is in an "Immediately Accessible" location so if you already have a suitable shutoff valve and if you are not comfortable with soldering you could elect to use the flexible copper water heater supply lines that have a FIP (Female iron pipe) connector on the tank end to connect to the dielectric nipple and a Compression Fitting on the opposite end that can be attached directly to the existing copper pipe by simply tightening the fitting with a wrench.

Your water heater is in an unfinished basement with a floor drain so you will be permitted to discharge the Temperature & Pressure relief valve on the floor. The discharge opening of your T&P valve is 3/4" therefore you must install a 3/4" discharge pipe down to within 6" of the floor. (Absolutely do not reduce the size of the discharge pipe. Reducing the pipe by one nominal trade size would reduce the volume of flow by 50% and that would negate the ability of the T&P to adequately relieve the pressure if need be.)

The codes says that when a gas fired water heater is installed in a garage, a room which opens into a garage, or any area where flamable liquids may be stored you are required to elevate the base of the water heater so that the lowest point of combustion is 18" above the finished floor. (Some local codes require this elevation for water heaters installed in unfinished basements.)

For gas water heaters there must be an approved gas shutoff valve in the near proximity of the water heater. (The shutoff valve may not serve more than one appliance).

Some local codes require the gas line to be hard piped with iron pipe all the way to the gas control valve while other jurisdictions will permit a flexible gas connector line from the shutoff valve to the water heater gas control. If your jurisdiction permits the flexible lines I would strongly suggest you install a new gas connector rather than attempt to reuse the old one.

All gas connections MUST BE leak tested with soap bubbles or an approved electronic gas detector.

In some regions subject to hurricanes, tornadoes or seimic activity you are required to install seismic support straps on the water heater vessel. The upper support strap is to be placed in the upper 1/3 of the tank height and a lower strap must be placed not more than 4" above the top of the gas control valve on the water heater.

If you will look through some of the other posts on this forum regarding water heaters you will see numerous illustrations.

[Cmudr1]

Just wanted to say Thankx for all the help you guys have been. I just upgraded to a 50 gal Electric and all is working great! (with all the fittings and flex hoses by the way LP , should be up to code)

Thanks Chris