Well Cycling Question

[DKAudio]

I live in an area where wells are very rare. I just got a house this year and the outside water is still hooked up to a well, inside water is city though. I know nothing about wells but I do know we have a submersible pump. My question is how often should the pump turn on and off? When we have one spigot open it will take around 40 seconds for the water to go from about 75-80PSI down to about 50PSI. This seemed quick to me but I have no idea. Once the pump turns on it only takes about 15-20 seconds to go back up to the 75-80. The reserve is pretty big, I would guess around 55. Thanks

[mrcaptainbob]

Well pump cycling....

Sounds like there's a rather small pressure/storage tank on that system, if one at all. How is that well connected to the outside spigot? Does it enter the house and get piped directly to that spigot? Are there any filters or tanks in line between the pump and spigot?

[DKAudio]

The tank is in a small room. It is out in the open and has a PSI gauge on it. I can see the pipe going into the tank. The outside water spigots are just plumbed in via the outlet of the tank.

[mrcaptainbob]

Spigot pressure.

What kind of tank is it? Is it a newer model with an air bladder or an old style that looks like a galvanized iron tank? There should be an air valve at the top. Shut the electric off to the pump. Turn on a spigot to drain any water pressure. Using a tire pressure gage, check that valve. There should be air pressure in there. At least 20 psi. The amount will vary, but first we need to know if there's any air at all in there.

[DKAudio]

I think it is old galvonized. It has a very hard black tar type substance over the entire thing. There is not a air valve on it that I can see. The top just has a big square nut (3/4"?) I tried adjusting the pressure to go more like 40-60PSI instead of 52-78 and it seemed to do nothing, the PSI gauge cycled at the same rates.

[mrcaptainbob]

Pressure tank...

There should be a large brass tee affair at the bottom of that tank. Most likely the air valve is located on that. Since this is an old style tank, there's no air bladder in it. It's best to have a newer tank with the bladder so as to separate the air from the water. Over time the water will absorb some of the air and lower the tank pressure. Also, if the water volume was ever exhasted from the tank through a faucet the air pressure could've been lost at that time. There should be a shut-off valve at that tee separating the rest of the house. There should also be a drain valve on that tee. Connect up a hose to that drain valve. if possible, try to open one of the bungs (pipe plugs) near the top of the tank to relieve the vacuum pressure and let the water out. (by the way, make sure the power to the pump is disconnected.) Once the water's drained out, shut off that drain valve. Now you can pump the tank air pressure to what it should be. I believe 35 to 38 PSI is appropriate since you're starting pressure is 40. Once it's back to that pressure, you can turn the power to the pump back on. That starting pressure of 55 to 80 PSI seems a bit high, too. The range of 40/60 is much better. Good choice on your part.

[DKAudio]

Thanks, I don't understand this part though...
"try to open one of the bungs (pipe plugs) near the top of the tank to relieve the vacuum pressure and let the water out."
Are you talking about the big "nut" on the top?

I see the drain valve, there is already a short hose connected to it. I still do not see a valve though.

I found a little page for the control though. It is called U.S. Air Volume Control For Deep Well Type "WJ" by AMETEK

You can see my presure gauge (2nd pic down) and my air control unit (3rd and 4th pics down) here...

http://www.deanbennett.com/well-accessories-page31.pdf#search='ametek%20wj%20air%20volume%20co ntrol'

There is also a short description...
"PRESSURE TANK AIR VOLUME CONTROLS
AIR VOLUME CONTROLS FOR USE WITH SUBMERSIBLE PUMPS
These deep well air volume controls maintain the proper ratio of air to water in standard pressure tanks
installed in a drain back type water system. This control opens the air valve on the fall in tank water level,
thereby bleeding excess air from the pressure tank. These controls have an 1-1/4” male thread for the
opening approximately half way up the pressure tank’s side.
$ 17.45 F93B1C F93B-1C Johnson Deep Well Air Volume Control
$ 24.50 TYPEWJ Type WJ Ametek Air Control with Die Cast Metal Body"

Remember mine is the WJ. I don't know if that helps at all. You can see the adjustment screw sticking out of the end on the right. It says this adjustes the venting pressure. In the book it says "if the pump operates too frequently the venting pressure should be increased by turning adjustment screw "E" to the right (clockwise).
I have tried adjusting this screw but it is not have any effect. I wonder if the relief vavle (internal) is clogged. It says if it is clogged with foreign material, bring pressure to 0 and remove vavle housing. With a tire vavle cap unscrew relief vavle and clean or replace. I don't really understand what they mean by that.

[mrcaptainbob]

Air volume....

Well, DKAudio, I may be in over my head here, as I have no experience with an air volume control on a pressure tank. Although, it still sounds like there's not the right amount of air pressure. Am wondering if that unit might've gone bad. Gut feeling is still with no air pressure, though. Hopefully Lazypup can help us on this....
Wondering what the 'directions' are for an initioal setup on a system like this. I would expect the system would need to be intially charged with the required air pressure, then that dvice would maintain....just guessing here, now...

[HayZee518]

bob - his description suggest the old galvanized storage tank that didn't have an air bladder in it. The pump seems to be describing the use of a standard water tank "with" the air bladder and is giving instructions how to fix it.

[mrcaptainbob]

Old tank....

That's what I thought, too, HayZee. Sounds like an older tank all right. But the "Type WJ Ametek Air Control with Die Cast Metal Body" throws me. I have no idea what that's about. Still sounds to me like the tank should be drained of water, pumped with air, then kick the well pump back on.....

[DKAudio]

Hey, sorry to bring up a thread that is a year old but I still have this problem and would like to fix it this year. Since this is an outside water well only and I live in MN, I only use this thing half of the year.

Would it be smart to just get a new tank? I could probably get a much smaller one since I only hook up 1 sprinkler at a time. If so can you post a link to one and possibly a tutorial so I can install it myself. Money is deffinitly an issue here. I really want to fix this as I am worried my pump will burn out.

Just found this interesting link, not sure what my submersible pump is though...
Well Tank Sizing

Thanks

[DKAudio]

was recommended a cylce stop valve and new tank. I know what those do but at still lost as what to get and how to install.

[HayZee518]

I'm trying to figure out the original posting - you use a well pump for landscape watering only??? what about the house or dwelling?

[DKAudio]

That is city manuciple(sp?), it was converted many many years ago, the outside was left on well though. I am just about the only one with a well left in my neighborhood.

[HayZee518]

"well" then I would say to set up your well with a paragon timer to kick in at a predetermined time each day. those timers are equipped to run off 240 volts or 120 volt. the well pump normally would be 240 volt single phase. a pressure switch would come off your storage tank, the pump supplying approx 45 psi to the line. the timer should be a single throw double pole type. a small timer motor maybe a quarter amp drives the mechanism.