Pipes Burst

[jozzmenia]

Hello, we're considering buying a house where the pipes burst and fixing it up. We can do everything ourselves except replace the pipes. They are considering taking $25,000 off the current asking price because the pipes need to be replaced. Basically we're having trouble gaging how much that will cost. I've worked with people who "flip houses" but never dealt with replacing pipes. Anyone have any idea how much something like that costs? I don't even know where to start looking. Actually the basement pipes burst and someone stole the pipes from one of the rooms upstairs. I am just trying to get an idea what something like this costs.

[LazyPup]

Due to the infinite number of variables involved it would be impossible to offer any pricing sight unseen. In order to get a realistic idea of the prices in your locality you should contact two or three local plumbers and have them give you an estimate. I would be confident in saying that unless this is an unusually large house, or has some extreme architectural challenges the proposed $25K should far outweigh the cost of repiping and all necessary wall repairs.

Having said that, allow me to say this as well. You stated that you feel confident that you can handle all other aspects of this job so from that I conclude that you are an advanced DIY'er. In regards to repiping you may feel a bit intimidated at the shear dimension of the job but in reality it is not nearly as difficult as one might expect, and certainly not beyond the ability of an advanced DIY'er with moderate plumbing experience. (keep in mind that we would be here to help you through the project)

In your post you stated that this house has a basement. If your basement is typical of others with open floor joists in the ceiling accessing the main runs and ground floor fixtures should be fairly easy and straightforward. Getting the risers from the basement to the second floor is also basically simple, so the real challenges will be in the upstairs portion. In order to access the upstairs portion you will no doubt need to open up the walls a bit, but with careful planning even that can be minimized.

Going out on a limb a bit here, sight unseen I would estimate that you have between 300 and 400' of pipe in total and the number of joints would be determined by the layout.

My first choice of material would be copper, but as a DIY'er you may feel more confident with CPVC or even PEX.

[jozzmenia]

I knew I couldn't get a quote or anything. I wanted more of a price range. Like are pipes more of a $1000 job or a $20,000 job u know what I mean? I think it would be something I would hire somebody for just because I'm paranoid about having it done right, because I've heard horror stories about bad plumbing jobs, so I'd want to have somebody I could sue. I was just trying to get an idea of what I would be in for if I decided to get all new pipes put in on a 1600 sq ft house. Now that i think about it, if pipes burst, do u have to get ALL new pipes, or would it be like one room???

[jozzmenia]

Actually, i would consider DIY but not literally by myself, i would get some help, even so, where do i find prices on the pipes themselves?

[LazyPup]

From the information in your previous posts we have two problems to consider. 1. You stated that you have pipes in the basement that have burst and 2. some of the pipes on the upper floor have been removed by vandals.

You don't mention what part of the country you are in but I suspect the pipes burst from freezing, probably while the house was vacant during a winter period. Having done a number of structures in this condition I can tell you first hand that you could cut out and repair the small sections that are burst but you would still not be certain that there is not other ruptered pipes or separated joints throughout the structure that you can't see.

The second problem is that when vandals steal copper pipe for its scrap value they seldom use any tools to cut it out, but rather they just twist or rip away at what they can reach and often there is severe damage to the remaining sections of pipe inside the walls where they couldn't reach. Based upon personal experience it is generally far easier and much faster to replace the pipe than to try to sort out the mess.

You stated that this is about 1600sq.ft on two stories so I am guessing about 800sq.ft per floor. Using the square root of 800 I can then estimate the house to be approximately 29' x 29' or perhaps 20' x 40'. Either way I am guessing it has a single bathroom upstairs, a kitchen and possibly a bath on the gound floor and a laundry and water heater in the basement.

If this is correct I would make a ballpark estimated guess that you would need well under 300' of pipe. The price of the pipe would then depend upon what material you choose. My personal choice would be Type L medium wall copper pipe and as a ballpark figure the pipe cost would be about $600 to $700 and allow another $150 for fittings, valves, solder and misc parts. Of course it could also be done with CPVC for much less. To this you would need to add about two or perhaps three days labor and the cost of whatever fixtures you choose. By Example toilets range from about $65 to well over $3000, bath tubs start out about $150 and I don't think there is an upper limit but hopefully you will be able to use the existing fixtures.

I think it would be very informative and of general interest to all who read our forum, so if you could use a graphic program or perhaps draw a floor plan and scan it in, showing the approximate location of all fixtures, the water heater and the point where your main water line enters the building, I could then work you up a layout showing pipe sizing, location of all required valves and give you a much better estimate of the amount of pipe required.

[scorrpio]

I would advise to grab your money and run. Burst pipes would never pass inspection, which means seller wants 'as is' sale, contract not contingent upon inspection.

You say pipes burst in basement, where you likely can see them. Do you have any clue as to condition of concealed piping elsewhere in the house?

Pipes burst, means there was water in them. Where did that water go? How much of it got soaked into framing? Is house insulation now wet and ineffective? Are the walls now rotting inside out?

Seller will always try to fix things that cost less than expected price drop. If this guy is willing to back down by 25k, I guarantee there is a lot more than 25k worth of damage there.

Real estate market is cooling off as well - interest rates on the rise, foreclosures are way up, and there are more and more people desperate to sell. The fact that house was vandalized points to a rather unsavory neighborhood - yet another problem you might have when selling it.

Replacing pipes is not hard, especially if you decide to switch to PEX, which can be fished almost like wire. But pipes might be the least of that house problems.

[jozzmenia]

well, some background, the house IS a foreclosure, so the realtor was telling me because it has been on the market so long i have a lot of room on the price. another thing is, it's in a really good neighborhood, a smaller house across the street is going for $50,000 than this was is FOR SALE for. the houses in this area are in the $90,000 to $180,000 range. this one is up for $75,000 and they were talking $500,000 and the realtor said I should offer them $30,000 and just see what happens...I didn't know all the stuff about the walls. Also, the stolen pipes wasn't a breakin, no broken locks or windows...they said it's being investigated as an inside job. U made a good point about the water damage. I didn't look into how the inside of the walls were. I know there were things that needed work, like the living room floors, etc. i was just saying the pipes were the only thing i was unfamiliar with it. i have been contemplating whether or not it was worth the investment. i don't know.

[LazyPup]

Having done dozens of houses in this condition I can tell you first hand that the amount of actual water damage to insulation or structural materials is in a worst case scenario, minimal. There simply is not near as much water in the pipes as one might think.

Typically a house such as you describe will have 1/2" diameter water piping.

The volume of the pipe can be computed by cross sectional area x length.

Cross sectional area is Pi x the Radius squared.
The radius of a 1/2" pipe is .25" therefore the cross sectional area is 3.1416 x (.25 x .25) = 3.1416 x 0.0625" = 0.19sq.in

One gallon of water occupies 231cu.in so we can divide 231cu.in by the cross sectional area = 231/0.19 = 1,215 linear inches.

Allowing 12" per foot we can then determine that 1,215 linear inches / 12" per foot = 101.25' of pipe contains one gallon of water. Typically a house of the size you describe will have 400' or less of pipe so the estimated water standing in the pipe at any given time would be 4gallon or less for the whole house.

Typically when theives steal the copper they begin where it is most easily accessible, in the basement and once they break the first line the majority of standing water in the systel will drain out at that point so the likelyhood of structural damage in the walls is minimal to non-existant.

[scorrpio]

The above math 'holds water' only if water was shut off. Question is, when was water shut off, and was it?
Foreclosures are a dangerous thing - people losing what they consider a lifetime investment sometimes do interesting things to houses out of spite. I've heard of concrete poured down the drains, ammonia inside walls, sawed support beams and the like.

What area is this anyway? Those prices just sound unreal. Here in northern NJ it is hard to find anything half decent under 400k...