Tell Me About PEX...

[DKAudio]

I am re-doing a bathroom in my basement. I also have many galvanized lines from the original build of the house (1954).

I want to update all the lines and was going to do it with copper...however, the price is great and I am on a pretty tight budget for renovations.

I saw an add at Menards for PEX tubing. After searching online and found that PEX is code for many areas, can last just as long/longer than copper (life expectancy of >50 years), it easier than sweating copper, can have red and blue colored for hot and cold, can make bends without connections, etc.

Unfortunately, not much was found on how the stuff is actually installed and used. At this point I am very interested in using this instead of copper, it seems much easier and cheaper. I have done a couple small sweating jobs with copper but replacing a whole basement would have me feeling hesitant.

Please tell me everything you know about PEX. Links would be great as well. I want to know how it is installed, attached to fixtures/water heaters, everything else I would need to know.

Thank you very much.

Dan

[pushkins]

I'm a convert (unless specified by a client otherwise) I now use PEX exclusively. $45 buys you 100' red, blue,white,grey. you use brass elbows and T's and shut off valves, pretty much any fitting that comes in copper they make in PEX brass. You will need to buy a PEX crimping tool (Lowe's sell a kit for around $100) the tool kit will come with 4 different size jaw attachments.
Simply put you put a little copper ring over the PEX pipe , push on the PEX fitting and hen using your crimping tool you squash down the ring over the barbed end of the fitting...DONE

You do have a considerable amount of latitude for corners as you can simply bend the PEX on a slow arc to get around them. As well they sell "manifolds" where a main feed line comes in and you can feed any number of rooms from this point, without having to "T" onto another line. This helps tremendously with pressure drop issues when two systems are being used at the same time.

The time saving is fantastic, the cost is (after you buy the tool and I never need an excuse to buy a tool ) also a great saving.
TO me another big plus is PEX's freeze capabilities, it tends to just get a big bloated spot where frozen (like a snake after just eating) then as it thaws shrinks back down to original size, copper won't do that.....lol

pexsupply.com is a good place to start if you want to see just what is available.

[DKAudio]

Awesome reply, thank you.

Just crimped, huh? That will make it super easy. My main coming in is 3/4" copper. I obviously want to leave the line coming in, my meter, etc remaining copper. The line also runs over a finished drywalled ceiling in my basement. Do they make an adapter to go from copper to PEX? This sounds awesome! All brass elbows and going into fixtures are crimped as well?

I am going to check out that site right now.

Do you know if HD has PEX? The Menards by my house is a super small one, they don't even carry lumber.

Do you know if it is code for Bloomington, MN 55420?

Thanks again!

[LazyPup]

In order to determine if Cross-Linked Polyethylene (PEX) it permitted in your jurisdiction you would need to call your local Plumbing Inspectors office.

Although I do feel that PEX is a quality product I am not nearly as convinced that it is the "Magic Bullet" as some would have us believe.

It is true the PEX tubing will tolerate an occasional freeze but it must also be remembered that all the fittings and end termination stubouts are made of brass or copper, and they are subject to the same types of freeze damage as we might see in copper. In addition, for reasons known only to the critters involved, rats, mice, squirrels and opossums seem to have a sweet tooth for PEX tubing.

I agree that the initial cost of the PEX tubing is much less than copper however if you elect to run a PEX manifold system you will use so many additional feet of tubing that in the end the price works out about the same as a copper installation. In fact many plumbers now bid copper or a PEX manifold system for the same price.

It is argued that PEX has the advantage in reworking an existing structure because it can be fished through the walls like pulling an electrical cable rather than opening the wall to run a rigid pipe but on the other hand, the same thing can be done with rolled copper pipe.

As for installation. As was mentioned in the previous post, PEX uses a crimp on system to make all connections. It must be noted that there are two or three different types of crimp fittings which are approved and you must be very careful to insure the that crimping tool you select is listed as approved for the type of fittings you intend to use. There is also a Go/no go gage that is used to check each crimp to insure it is set correctly. The use of the gage is not an option, you are required to have it and use it on each fitting.

It should also be mentioned that there are some compression fittings that will fit on PEX tubing. Those fittings are approved for use in the HVAC industry on low pressure hydronic heating lines but they are strictly prohibited for the house potable water distribution system.

There is a little known characteristic about PEX that often goes totally unnoticed by DIY'ers and sadly some plumbers and inspectors. PEX may not be exposed to ultra-violet light or direct or indirect sunlight for a prolonged period. When a PEX manifold is installed in a basement or when running PEX tubing through joist bays in a basement open crawlspace the tubing must be sleeved with an approved UV protector or the joist bays must be covered to prevent sunlight from passing through a basement window or into the crawlspace and being reflected to the PEX location.

My personal singular objection to PEX is a health issue. Under laboratory tests it was determined that Biofilm will form the quickest in new copper pipe, followed immediately by PEX, however, as copper ages it forms a molecular layer of copper sulfate on the interior of the pipe, which is often seen as a greenish corrosion layer. Copper sulfate is one of the best anti-bacterial agents known to man, so in essence, by the time that Biofilm has had a chance to begin forming in the pipes copper pipe forms its own antidote. On the other hand, it is recommended that a PEX or CPVC system must be sanitized at least once every three years. Biofilm is a gelatinous mass that forms in pipes and AC condensate trays which has been directly attributed to Legionaires Disease and a number of other potentially deadly pathogens.

If you would like a copy of the PEX installation handbook you can download it free in PDF format from the following link.

Plumber's Installation Handbook

[DKAudio]

Hmm, good things to know.

Cleaning the PEX out would be a pain.

I have very small windows in my basement. I doubt the tubing would be much direct sunlight but it would get indirect natural light.

I am not worried about the freezing issue. I live at my house full-time so I would notice long before it got to freezing temp.

Do you know how much that gauge is?

I guess I am pretty good at sweating copper but again...a whole house worth? There is bound to be some issues, that is what I am worried about. Especially if I do a "T". I have done them before without issues but over-heating and getting all 3 perfectly flowed seems tough.

[DKAudio]

ok, what about CPVC?

[LazyPup]

The plumbing codes list galvanized iron pipe, copper pipe, CPVC and in most localities PEX or PEX-AL-PEX as approved for potable water distribution lines within a house.

While we could make a long list of pro's and con's for each type of material allow me to cut to the chase. While I do personally prefer copper, nevertheless, in my humble opinion copper or PEX should be thought of as about equal in overall quality.

Although very seldom used today, with an expected service life of 60 to 100 years, galvanized iron pipe is still a very good material although it is very expensive and labor intensive to install. As a general rule galvanized iron pipe is considered cost prohibitive for residential construction today.

As a rule, CPVC is generally thought of as the bargain basement material for potable water systems, although in regions where they have acidic water that would cause pin-holes in copper, CPVC is then the material of choice.

Some will argue that PEX is the material of choice for regions with acidic water, but it must be remembered that the fixture end stub outs used in a PEX system are principally made of copper and as such they would be subject to the same corrosive effects of acidic water as would copper pipe.

Taking this discussion to the next level. If there is any condition in your water quality that would adversely effect the pipe material I have to ask myself, what does that condition do to your body over a prolonged period? Here again, in my personal opinion, when you have water quality issues that are detrimental to any pipe material would you not be better served by installing a water treatment system to correct the problem rather than look for a more tolerant pipe?

Now in regards to sanitizing the potable water distribution system. The major health concern is the formation of bio-film. It must be understood that bio-film grows very slowly and is easily controlled by chlorination, therefore if you have a chlorinated municipal water source your risk of bio-film is greatly diminished, especially in the areas of frequent water use such as your kitchen or primary bathrooms, however, in nearly every structure today we have pipes and fixtures that are seldom used, such as a guest bathroom, perhaps a faucet or bar sink in the basement or the outside hose bibs during winter months. As the water remains basically stagnant in that section of the piping the chlorine in that water will dissipate leaving the standing water in basically a stagnant condition. If you have a chlorinated municipal water supply the immediate solution is to just open the faucet and let it run for 5 or 6 minutes to flush the pipe.

If you water supply is not chlorinated we then turn off you main water shutoff valve, completely drain your water system, then refill it by pumping in a sanitizer solution. The solution is allowed to stand for about 1 hour, then the system is again drained and the main water supply valve is opened again.

That may seem like an expensive method but in reality it is quite inexpensive. The sanitizing agent is simply a solution of water and common chlorine laundry bleach and the amount required is not nearly as much as one might think. To give you an idea of how much solution might be required consider the volume of your pipes"

1/2" pipe.....1gallon per 98 linear feet
3/4" pipe.....1 gallon per 44 linear feet
1" pipe........1 gallon per 25'

As you can see from those volumes, in most instances it will require 10gal or less to completely sanitize the house piping system.

Now in regards to your question about the PEX gage.

Principally there are three diameters of pipe commonly used in a PEX system.

When PEX first came on the market it required a separate crimping tool for each size of pipe and the tools were selling for about $125 each, plus an additional $8 to $10 for the go/no-go gage.

They are now making some crimpers that have interchangeable jaws thus you can get a single crimper handle with a full set of jaws for about $150.

On the other hand, as PEX becomes more and more popular in a region the local tool rental companies are often now stocking the tools for a moderate daily rental fee.

And last but not least, your concerns about soldering copper.

Fortunately for me, I was in the refrigeration & AC trade for a number of years before I went into plumbing. In refrigeration work all our copper pipes had to be brazed to a gas and vacuum tight standard, which required the use of acetylene torches. After that experience I found soldering copper to be almost second nature.

i could not begin to tell you how many people I have taught to solder copper over the years, yet in each experience one thing proved to be true. In the beginning the idea of soldering copper seems a bit intimidating, but as is true of all things, with attention to detail and a bit of practice it becomes fun and easy. If I could make you no other suggestion, i would suggest that before you begin a house project get a short length of scrap copper, the greener or blacker the better, and a dozen or so fittings, then just play with that until you get the feel for the process. My 11 year old niece took the practice idea to the next level. Instead of just soldering fittings on a section of scrap she made a little high chair for her favorite doll by soldering copper pipe.

Here is a website were you can download the complete "Copper Pipe Handbook" in PDF format

http://www.copper.org/resources/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

[DKAudio]

Thank you very much.

I have done quite a bit of soldering and have only had 1 leak; I have a pretty good record.

My brother in law is a sprinkler fitter who works almost exclusively with CPVC. He has all the tools and everything, that is why I thought of that.

Really it comes down to copper being so dang expensive right now.

My municipal water is extremely clean. People don't even need a water softener in this city!