Not enough HOT water (again...)

[snowdog]

I'm barely getting enough hot water to last one shower and have to get my hot water heater fixed (again) :-(

My hot water heater (electric "Bradford White", model M250560S5, 50 gallon), is only 4 years old, and I just went through this *&$#ing problem about a year and half ago.

In July of '08 I had a similar issue, and I paid a plumber to diagnose and fix it to the tune of $400!!! The problem was the lower heating element, which was replaced with a different type, one with an extra "curl/fold" in it which was supposed to heat better and last longer. I can't believe this one has given up the ghost now too (or maybe it is the original upper element that is fracked now, or a thermostat, or something).

My original heater (also a Bradford White) lasted 14 years until it acted up. I can't face sinking yet another $400 into this one at only 4 years old. I'd like to try to diagnose (even fix) as much of this myself this time if anyone up here can steer me in the right direction(s), as I need to save the $$$ if I can.

My biggest problem is going to be draining the thing - I have no drain near/beneath the water heater drain valve, instead the water needs to be pumped out to my washer outlet which is about 8 feet away and 6 feet up in the air. I have hoses that will reach that far, and last time this happened I bought a drill attachment that is supposed to work for things like this in the event it happens again, but I just tried a test with that thing and it definitely is NOT going to work, it is crap (or my drill is crap - it can barely turn it, and as near as I can tell from reading the INSTRUCTIONS on the attachment it even says that drills are NOT MADE to operate it for constant periods of time - so they are even admitting that it won't work!!! It took over an hour for the plumber to drain the heater last time btw, using his own "real" pump thing).

So, my questions:

- what steps can I follow first of all to diagnose things to figure out if the problem is one of the heater elements or one of the thermostats? I do have a heavy duty voltmeter.

- if the tank does need draining in order to fix it (like replacing an element) can anyone either recommend an (inexpensive) pump type thing to buy, or are they available to rent?

I'll stop there and see what kind of advice I can get. THANKS...

[HayZee518]

well, by now you should know what happens when you are calling for hot water. first to look at is the plastic dip tube. its on your cold water inlet to the tank. it goes from the water inlet to the bottom of the tank. heated water always rises to the top of the tank. the top element comes on first and when its satisfied its contacts switch to the lower thermostat and element. the whole thing is called sequential operation.

[Redwood]

The element 240-volt, 4500-watt will have a resistance of about 12.8 ohms when tested across the two terminal screws. It should also measure "open" circuit to the tank.

I prefer using an ammeter for testing myself which should yield a measurement of 18.75 amps...

[snowdog]

well, by now you should know what happens when you are calling for hot water. first to look at is the plastic dip tube. its on your cold water inlet to the tank. it goes from the water inlet to the bottom of the tank. heated water always rises to the top of the tank. the top element comes on first and when its satisfied its contacts switch to the lower thermostat and element. the whole thing is called sequential operation.

Thanks. How to I "look" at the plastic dip tube inside the heater??? I can only see the metal piping that goes into the tank.

Are you saying that I have to drain the tank then take it apart somehow and look for something specific inside it to do with this plastic dip tube (what)???

**EDIT**
I did some reading and think I understand about the dip tube. If I understand it right I would have to drain the tank, then try to unscrew the cold water input pipe from the top of the heater, which is attached to the dip tube, then try to unscrew/remove the dip tube itself through the top of the tank, inspect it, and replace it if necessary. From all the reading I've done I'm not sure I will even be able to do all that - some sites say trying to get the dip tube out can be harder than just replacing the entire tank (sigh).

In the meantime I have flushed the tank and removed some sediment, hoping maybe that will help. I've also turned up both thermostats from "A" to "B" in the hopes that this will give me more hot water for now. If it is a dip tube problem doing this shouldn't make any difference.

[snowdog]

The element 240-volt, 4500-watt will have a resistance of about 12.8 ohms when tested across the two terminal screws. It should also measure "open" circuit to the tank.

I prefer using an ammeter for testing myself which should yield a measurement of 18.75 amps...

Thanks.

I turned off the circuit breaker then tested the resistance on the terminal screws of both the heating elements.

The top one shows about 12.8.

The bottom one shows about 13.5. Does that mean anything significant?

[HayZee518]

The dip tube fits into the cold water feed line. if it is destroyed then any heating element will kick in. You'll need to remove the cold water feed line to see if the tube is intact or not there. you don't have to drain the line completely , just enough so water don't squirt out when you remove the inlet pipe [nipple]

[Redwood]

Thanks.

I turned off the circuit breaker then tested the resistance on the terminal screws of both the heating elements.

The top one shows about 12.8.

The bottom one shows about 13.5. Does that mean anything significant?

Probably not. Sounds like its okay
Next question is do you get voltage to each?
Remember it is switched by the top thermostat to the bottom.

[snowdog]

The dip tube fits into the cold water feed line. if it is destroyed then any heating element will kick in. You'll need to remove the cold water feed line to see if the tube is intact or not there. you don't have to drain the line completely , just enough so water don't squirt out when you remove the inlet pipe [nipple]

Thanks for the tip about not needing to drain the whole thing to do this.

I took a look at the fittings and I can see the copper tube from the cold water line going into the tank attached with some kind of fitting. I assume that attaching a wrench to this fitting will remove the connection of the cold water line to the tank (and the dip tube?) but - I thought that this was welded shut to seal it?????

If I partially drain the tank to loosen this - won't that break the weld?

Also, assuming I have this wrong about this being welded, and that I can unscrew it, I'm not sure I will be able to push the cold water line up and out of the way anyway, without damaging it (????)...

[snowdog]

Probably not. Sounds like its okay
Next question is do you get voltage to each?
Remember it is switched by the top thermostat to the bottom.

Thanks.

There is definitely voltage getting to each element, at least from what I can see by hovering a voltage detector near the wires for both of the elements.


I appreciate all the help. Due to my lack of real handyman skills I may end up having to go to a plumber for all this again but I'd like to at least TRY to do something first myself. Thanks to this forum I was able to fix my dryer last year. Sinking yet ANOTHER $400 into this only 4 year old water heater, only 2 years after doing just that to have a "pro" replace one element, is not something I want to do again now (and can't afford to either).

[HayZee518]

the dip tube is a plastic tube that just sits in the cold water feed on the heater. the tank top fitting may be a male short nipple that is welded to the tank or a female hub that is welded to the tank. you are NOT going to break any weld using a wrench. some connections use a male copper adapter some use a female copper adapter that screws on these inlet and outlet fittings. when you remove the cold water inlet use a flashlight to see if there is a white plastic tube in the tank fitting. try to snag it and pull it out. if its busted you'll know soon enough. go to home depot and buy a new dip tube, then reverse the procedure to put everything back together. the tube is flexible enough so you can put it into the tank.

[Redwood]

The ac voltage detector will not give you an accurate indication of the proper voltage being present. The 240-volts is only switched on one pole so ac voltage will always be present. You have to actually measure the voltage to know what you have present.