Advice re: American Standard Cadet???

[Sunshine]

In August/September 2009 I had a discussion with members of the Home Repair Forum concerning a problem I had encountered with the flushing of my commodes. I was posting under name of Sunshine -

I believed I had the problem resolved until about three months ago- I once again had water all over my primary bathroom floor. Since then I have NOT used that commode.

I have been "stewing" about this - trying to decide what to do next.

This past Wednesday, May 25th, I drove down to the Lowe's store to see what they might have in an alternate commode. My query to the sales person - I wanted to know if "they" made a commode that, when flushed, would drop the contents directly to the septic line. I wanted a commode that did NOT have such as that "S" for the contents to go through. He told me that the "S" is a requirement (by someone) because that is where the trap is located. Well, that is the first time I knew there was any such mechanism down there.

O.K. I told him that I am considering replacing a Universal Ruddle #4490 that had been put in place in 1996 - and I explained my concern. He told me that apparently that was/is NOT a desirable unit. He said any of the newer toilets will flush better than the Universal Ruddle. He talked about different toilets that I might consider - mostly the Kohler - I told him that I would get back to him.

I decided to stop at the Home Depot - same reason. I don't believe I told that sales person the entire story, but the discussion let to him suggesting that I consider a "pressure assisted toilet" and mentioned the name "Sloan Flushmate".

They did not have any that I could see, but he mentioned the American Standard Cadet and the Kohler Highline. They could order either for me.
I thanked him for his help - I would get back to him.

So, yesterday, I spent an hour or two at the computer to see what I could find.

My concerns: apparently this is a one piece unit - using 1.6 gpf water and seemed to be a total of 29" in depth - which is at least 4.5" longer than my current commode combination. The current bolts (to the floor) are located 12" from the wall and I have to wonder if the elongated unit would allow the use of those holes.

I found that the Consumer Reports seems to indicate that the American Standard Compact Cadet Flo Wise 2403.128 is "best" in choice. That is uses the Sloan Flushmate system - and from what I read - that sounds interesting.

I do understand that, when flushed, this system is noisier than a "normal" toilet. I also have to wonder if my "work person" could actually put this unit in place. No matter, I feel that the Home Depot would find someone to "install" the unit.

On Saturday, May 29, 2010 - I returned to the computer and did some additional searching and found that the American Standard Cadet Flo Wise 2403-128 covered by the Consumers Reports is NOT the unit that I was looking for.

This morning: I found the American Standard 2366.100.020 which DOES use the Sloan Flushmate III system - it is a "round front two piece toilet" - and mentions a "12 inch rough".
-
This morning, before preparing this entry - I once again got into a search specifically for the Kohler Highline that the sales person from the Home Depot had mentioned - and, from what I could find - that seems to use something referred to as a "pressure Lite" system - I don't know if that is the same as the Sloan Flushmate system.

I did find a Kohler K3492 Highline Pressure LIte (two piece) elongated toilet-it uses a different
"pressure assisted flushing system" - the length is 30 1/8" and mentions a "12" rough".

I would appreciate any feedlback - good or bad. Thank you.

[Redwood]

First off there is not a toilet made that does what you want where the waste drops straight down. The possible exception being toilets for boats and campers where the waste drops into a holding tank. You cannot install those in your home.

None of the toilets you mention really rock my socks despite their appeal to the folks at consumer reports. I was a much younger man the last time American Standard or, Kohler managed to put high quality, good design, high reliability, and great operation all into one package for sale.

In fact American Standard has been assigned a spot on my $#!% list where I only install them when they are customer supplied and the only guarantee from me is that I installed it correctly. When that defective patch on the back of the trapway leaks, or the sun shines in the window and the color doesn't match the tub and sink it's not my problem...

I still keep my money cause I installed it correctly...

Flushmates are a whole different story. They do work! But, they are loud and more expensive to repair than gravity flush toilets. Basically they are the equivalent of supercharging a Yugo. A multitude of bad design choices could be covered up by making the toilet work with the Flushmate.

My personal preference is the TOTO line of toilets high quality, good design, high reliability, and great operation, reigns supreme...

The best deal in the Toto product line IMHO is the Toto Drake II.

Heck you might even get one that is Made in The USA!

Try that with American Standard!
Hecho en Mexico
Hecho en Guatemala
Hecho en Honduras
Hecho en Brazil
seems to reign supreme...

[SCT]

...This morning, before preparing this entry - I once again got into a search specifically for the Kohler Highline that the sales person from the Home Depot had mentioned - and, from what I could find - that seems to use something referred to as a "pressure Lite" system - I don't know if that is the same as the Sloan Flushmate system.

I did find a Kohler K3492 Highline Pressure LIte (two piece) elongated toilet-it uses a different
"pressure assisted flushing system" - the length is 30 1/8" and mentions a "12" rough".

I would appreciate any feedback - good or bad. Thank you.

To answer your specific question, Kohler's "pressure-lite" is indeed a Sloan Flushmate system. While Kohler never actually states this on their Web site, their documentation includes instructions to call Sloan Flushmate's published tech support numbers (800-533-3450 / 800-533-3460) for assistance with the pressure-assist system.

Some will always argue that a pressure-assist flush is significantly louder than a gravity flush but the reality is the actual difference in peak noise levels is marginal (usually between 4 -7 decibels depending on the fixture) but since the gravity flush noise level peaks at the end of the flush cycle and the pressure-assist flush peaks at the beginning of the flush cycle people sometimes "perceive" a louder noise because there's no slow build-up like they are used to.

It's similar to getting into your car in the morning after having left the radio on when you shut off the engine the night before; what was a comfortable listening volume suddenly sounds like a burst of noise. The volume didn't change, just your perception.

For the record, repairing a Flushmate system isn't necessarily more expensive or difficult than any other type of plumbing valve and in most cases it's cheaper and easier; Flushmate is 100% designed and manufactured in the USA and current products have a ten (10) year warranty on parts and a lifetime warranty on the body of the pressure tank.

Before your purchase, you may want to take a look at the installation and trouble-shooting videos at "howto-dot-flushmate-dot-com" (can't post URLs). Flushmate is a pretty simple system and the bowls are designed to have a larger water surface area than most low-flow gravity models that are prone to streaking and often require a second flush to thoroughly cleanse the sides of the bowl.

Hope this informatin is helpful.

[Sunshine]

Advice re: American Standard Cadet???

Yesterday I spent a considerable amount of time on the computer/Google site - trying to update the information concerning the pending replacement of my toilet bowl.

Thank you SCT - had I checked the posting yesterday afternoon I might have saved myself some search time. Your posting confirmed the final conclusion I had made yesterday. (Sloan Flushmate versus the Pressure Lite)

I won't be able to watch the video you mentioned because I am on the dial up system and the video aspect does not seem to function.

Yesterday, I did find a website - "Sloan FLUSHMATE Flushometer-Tank System"> - which covered "troubleshooting a Flushmate" - that provides detailed instructions concerning solving a potential problem with the Flushmate. At the same time states "the Sloan Flushmate is used in the tanks of many brands of toilets" and the name Kohler Pressure Lite is mentioned. However, I could not utilize that connection, if there is one.

Again, thank you SCT.

Now, I want to advise Redwood - what else I found/confirmed yesterday.

I went back to the "blackboard", so to speak. I have come to the conclusion that the diameter of the trapway could be a significant factor. As well could the reference to "glazed" be significant.

The American Standard 2366.100.0020 - a round front two piece unit - with the Sloan Flushmate III system has a "fully glazed 2 1/8" trapway/2"minimum bypass.

I could not find any data relating to the diameter of the trapway on the Kohler K3493 Highline Pressure Lite - this is also a two piece unit with the elogated bowl.

I did find a website concerning the Kohler toilets (in general) and that stated that the minimum standard size of a trapway is 1.5 inches and Kohler's have a 2.5 inch trapway. (the word glazed not mentioned).

I did find data on the Toto Drake two piece elongated toilet CST7445 - that had also been covered in the Consumers Reports - that shows "the trap is fully glazed at 2 1/8" diameter". It does not state the flushing system except to advise "flush system - gravity feed (G Max system).

I also found a website NOISY SLOAN FLUSHMATE TOILET
That website provided data on resolving potential problems concerning noise when flushing.

Well, I think I have all my eggs in the basket, so to speak.

My "work person" is coming over tomorrow to do some yard work - I will pass this data by him - to get his input. Although, it is highly possible he will not feel qualified to do the installation - he certainly has been dealing with the
problems with my commodes for the past year.

It looks like whatever unit I decide to purchase - it will be at the Home Depot - my requirement to them would be that they have someone come out to install the unit that has installed this system - either one before and knows the traveling distance involved should I need to call him back for servicing.

Again thank you Redwood.

I'll be back

[Redwood]

Don't get me wrong...

I like the Sloan Flushmates...

The last one I worked on resulted in me handing the customer a bill for $600...

3 or 4 of those a day and I'd be on easy street!


The Toto G-Max is a high performance flushing system that uses a flapper mush like any other toilet...

Just a larger diameter.

You will not find them at big box stores...

You might do well to read this before purchasing a toilet...

[mrcaptainbob]

Great article...

Great article, Redwood. Thanks for posting it....more stuff I learned today.

[Sunshine]

[QUOTE=Redwood;37709

Flushmates are a whole different story. They do work! But, they are loud and more expensive to repair than gravity flush toilets. Basically they are the equivalent of supercharging a Yugo. A multitude of bad design choices could be covered up by making the toilet work with the Flushmate.
------------------------
"Redwood" I did go to the sight you suggested: Re: Sewer History - I believe that was also suggested in your follow-up posting.

Upon reading that article I went to "click" on "Which Toilet is Best" and there I found/realized that I had been incorrect in mentioning "Consumer Reports" in my original posting. Because when I clicked on "Which Toilet is Best" - I found it was the article I had originally attributed to Consumer Reports. It had been prepared by "consumers search.com/toilets". No matter it was the same information.

That plus the data presented in your posting of June 3, 2010 re: $600.00 possible cost to repair should I need someone locally to do so - sent me back to the computer search. I have enough trouble finding someone who knows "something" about a "standard" system.

I DID TRY TO FIND SOMETHING LOCALLY RE: THE TOTO - could not.

I DID find: The American Standard Champion 4 -2585 round front toilet - this interested me because: it contained a "4 inch non-adjustable, piston action Accelerator (TM) flush valve" - and a "2 3/8" fully-glazed trapway" - with that 1.6 gpf water use - however that is measured. The required floor measurements appeared to be applicable.

So on June 10, 2010 I went back to the Home Depot and was lucky enough to find a work person willing to spend time with me. I did go in - indicating to him that I wanted to talk with him about the American Standard with the Flushmate system.

I had also gone in prepared to talk with him/someone about the American Standard Champion 4 -2585 unit. I left there with the American Standard Champion 4 - 2585 unit in the back of my vehicle.

On June 22, 2010 I had a work person from a local contractor come to my home to "install" the unit.

He also removed the old unit to take away - I did ask him break the unit apart to see what might be clogging it and then to measure the trapway.

He did break it apart and took a photo which he sent to me, but he did not mention the diameter of the trapway. Since he left to go on vacation immediately following his visit here - I will have to check into that another time.

Hopefully the force of the water leaving the 4" flush valve will be helpful in preventing future clogs. We'll see.

I apologize for the delay in updating the information, but I have also been involved in a multitude on concerns.

Again thank you to Redwood as well as SCT for your input.