Please explain to me the process of pulling permits, inspections, etc...

[HayZee518]

meter socket

Typical meter sockets are manufactured by GE. Milbank, Crouse-Hinds. All residential sockets are rated 100 & 200 amp even tho the 200 ampere socket can be wired for 150 amp or so besides the 200 amp. The bottom or load side of the meter, the cable(s) may be a thermoplastic jacketed cable or metal or pvc conduit. if cable then you'd use a non weathertight connector and also at the panelbox. if conduit then where it enters the building you'd use what is called an entrance ell. can be pvc or metal. if metal then it needs to have bonding bushings at the meter trough and panelbox. couldn't find an adequate picture of a meter socket so I drew one.

[DKAudio]

Thanks for the diagram, easy enough.

The bottom or load side of the meter, the cable(s) may be a thermoplastic jacketed cable or metal or pvc conduit. if cable then you'd use a non weathertight connector and also at the panelbox. if conduit then where it enters the building you'd use what is called an entrance ell. can be pvc or metal. if metal then it needs to have bonding bushings at the meter trough and panelbox.

Sorry, not quite following. Doesn't the meter and panel just have screw down clamps that take bare stripped wire like you mentioned in post #15? Every residential panel I have worked on has conduit housing the mains conductors which are just a normal rubber/plastic type insulation.

[HayZee518]

Yeah, no problem - you understood correctly. what I was referring to in the latter portion was that if your output from the meter trough to the poanel is SEU cable then you would use non weather tight connectors to secure the cable to both the meter trough and panelbox. If your run to the panelbox was to be in conduit, PVC then you'd use three conductors AND if the conduit run was metal, that you'd need to use bonding bushings at both ends along with a stranded #6 copper ground between the bonding bushings. you see I know its hard to explain but grounding and bonding are two different things in the electrical code.

[DKAudio]

I stopped by their house and pulled the cover. His flashlight was dead and it was pretty dark but I am pretty sure they are AL mains and you're right, pretty short. Other circuits have a fair amount of wire. They used red for N in one of the circuits (is BX with just black and red wires). I can just use white electrical tape and wrape the end where it lands on the N and G buss, right, will that pass inspection?

Coming down from their meter is conduit with 3 conductors (2 legs and N). I assume they get earth ground through the conduit. A close by water pipe is bonded to the N/G buss via probably around 6AWG solid.

I think it should be pretty straight forward, what do you think?

[HayZee518]

the neutral wire should be white along its entire length but if they substituted which is what I see then a white tape for the neutral should be installed at both ends. the earth ground is from the water pipe. odd that the equipment ground is a solid wire usually it's #6 bare stranded. ok you are just changing out the panelbox to breakers?? then use the bonding screw supplied and connect the neutral to this bus. the hots will go to the main breaker lugs. you mention the meter and panel are interconnected with conduit. this should be a 1 1/4 inch pipe and have bonding bushings at each end. older services just used regular metal bushings with no bonding screw. look in my electrical fittings section of illustrations. I'm pretty sure I put in a bonding bushing illustration.

[DKAudio]

This should almost be moved to electrical now

Yeah, I am removing their old fuse panel from the wall and installing a breaker panel. I will keep their existing circuits and also add many for their downstairs wiring which currently does not exist.

I looked through the illustration section and was not able to find the bonding bushing drawing. I assume it is just a clamp that hugs the conduit/pipe with a screw down for a wire?

I also just found out that it is code to have your grounding rod have a conductor to the meter. Then the meter down to the panel (by what your saying it sounds like I can use the conduit and bonding bushings?) then from the N/G buss to both sides of your water meter. Is this correct? Their water meter is on the other side of the their basement from the panel. If that is the case, where does the ground wire go in the meter. I see in your drawing the nuetral or ground bar but there are only 2 screws which should be line and load side nuetral, where would the ground go?


Does NEC say anything about the white plastic NMB nail staples? Can I put 2 wires under 1, what is the min distance that NMB needs to be stapled?

Finally, where do I get those huge allen wrenches for main terminals in panels? My friend (electrician) said you really need to torque on your mains and to get a wrench with a long handle for a lot of leverage.

Thank you so much, I appreciate all your time and help. I am confident, it is just the first panel change I have done.

Dan

[DKAudio]

Sorry, not trying to be pushy but I am starting tomorrow. My questions remaining are in the previous post.

Of course I thought of some more too...

I heard that basements now require all GFCI outlets, is this correct?

What is the code for outlet spacing (IIRC one every 6', what if the wall is around 10'?)

Thanks a lot!

[HayZee518]

Service entrance

Take a look at my diagram. this should explain some of your questions. after reading your last private msg you got me scared as to whether you can do the job. no offense intended but not knowing what a compression connector should be common knowledge to electricians. my phone is 518-856-0004 eastern time. name is Tom

[HayZee518]

Electric Service

OK, a parts list you will need for your project is: 1 - 4/0 SEU weathercap, XX no of either two hole straps for 4/0 SEU or 4/0 SEU foldover clips, a 5/16 inch lag screw to hold the weathercap up to the house, a 2 inch weathertight compression connector, a 2 inch hub for the meter socket, a 200 amp Milbank meter socket, 2 - 1 1/4 inch pvc adapters plus locknuts, xxx feet 1 1/4 inch PVC conduit, xxx no of 1 1/4 inch one or two hole conduit clips or straps, 1 - 1 1/4 inch PVC entrance ell, Inside the house you'll need one or two pvc LB fittings. Outside a 5/8 inch copper clad ground rod, ground rod clamp, three 3/4 to 1 1/4 ground clamps. xxx feet #6 bare copper. use tye wraps to fasten the bare ground to the water pipe. use insulated staples to hammer the ground wire to the joists. use a regular romex connector to feed the ground wire into the new panelbox. one bottle of no-alox. the bolts in the meter socket are hex head bolts. the screws on the main breaker may be 1/4 inch allen head bolts. use a 1/4 inch ratchet allen head socket.

[LazyPup]

I have been following this discussion of permits with great interest and it comes to me that heretofore it has been fringing on a very gray area of the law.

In most jurisdictions a property owner or his/her delegates may perform “maintenance” without a permit or inspection subject to some limitations. By example, in my jurisdiction, with the exception of installing a water heater, a homeowner may perform plumbing maintenance on the potable water distribution system and all related fixtures and appurtenances and the DWV (drain, waste & vent) system, however all maintenance on the house sewer, septic tank and leach field requires a permit and a subsequent inspection. On the house gas distribution system the homeowner or his/her delegates may install a gas appliance and may make the final gas connection from the appliance gas shutoff valve to the appliance gas control, but they may not perform any maintenance on the house gas piping system.

All “New Work” requires a permit.

The question then becomes, what is maintenance and what is new work?

By code definition the act of maintenance is servicing or maintaining the existing system in its original design and layout. This mean you can remove a defective pipe, valve or fixture and replace it in the same location with a like kind pipe, valve or fixture however, any alteration to the original design or layout is classified as “new work”. This means if you take out a tub you must replace it with a tub in the same location. Removing a tub and replacing it with a shower stall would be classified as new work. The same is true if you change the location of a fixture, which results in altering the length of any pipe would be technically classified as “New Work”.

In most jurisdictions a homeowner may pull a “Self Help Permit” if the structure that he/she intends to work on is a “single-family dwelling” and is occupied solely by the homeowner and members of his/her immediate family. (Don’t take this point lightly, if you so much as rent a room to an individual who is not a member of your immediate family you cannot qualify for a self-help permit.)

A Licensed General Contractor or a Licensed Tradesman must pull all other permits for new work.

Once the permit is pulled it is the obligation of the individual whose name is on the permit to specify the type and quality of all materials and insure all code compliance during the construction phase.

Under no circumstance may an unlicensed “Handyman” pull a permit for new work and taking this to the next level, an unlicensed handyman must follow the expressed instructions of the permit holder. Under no circumstances may a handyman specify any materials or construction methods. By code definition if a handyman specifies the layout, type of materials or construction methods that said handyman might be arrested and convicted of contracting without a license.

[DKAudio]

Interesting read Lazypup. In your last paragraph you talk about expressing and specifying materials, layouts, etc. To whom would this "handyman" be talking to in order to get potentially arrested?

Tom, thank you very much for the parts list and diagrams, they help immensly.

I just got back from their house again to look things over. They do have 100A service with AL mains. I cannot read the writing on the mains but they look to me like 4AWG. I am hoping it was just dark and a wierd angle and that they indeed are 2AWG, I won't know until I can disconnect them.

Since they currently have 100A service, we are just going to keep that and change it to a breaker panel. It will make things much easier and quicker. I currently have jury duty and other side jobs, they need this done by memorial day for their son's birthday party. If I was to change out everything to get 200A service I probably wouldn't finish in time anyways.

I believe I know all the load side of the breaker panel codes and have wired many houses/circuits from the breaker on so I am not worried about that.

Now, since I am keeping the mains and service size, do I still need to install a grounding rod and do I need bonding bushings or is this "grandfathered in"?

Thanks again, I have learned a lot about the line side of a residential electrical panel.

[HayZee518]

installing the extra [driven ground] brings the install up to code. bonding bushings are used only with metal conduit [ rigid conduit, emt, intermediate conduit IMC. etc] you are saving maybe oh, about three hours if you just replace the fuse box to breaker panel. a complete service change takes [a licensed guy] about 6 hours from start to finish.

[DKAudio]

If I install the rod, where would I enter my metal conduit or meter cabinet? I assume it needs to be weathertight and I see no knock-outs or anything.

They do have metal conduit so I would need to install a bonding bushing on both ends. The meter end has a connection for the conductor? The panel end would just be a self tap to the enclosure?
The driven ground rod conductor just connects to the meter buss and stops, right?
The driven ground rod conductor and nuetral/ground buss to water meter conductor are two seperate conductors, just like your drawing shows, correct?

[HayZee518]

drive the ground rod as near to your foundation as you can. drive it till about an inch or two is showing. run the #6 up the side of the building into a bottom knockout on the meter socket. use the smallest knockout you can find. it don't have to be waterproof - the cable from the water pipe where it enters the house and around the meter should be one piece to the panelbox - no splices in between.

[DKAudio]

the cable from the water pipe where it enters the house and around the meter should be one piece to the panelbox - no splices in between.

Sorry, this confused me. You drew the ground rod to meter box and the water meter to nuetral/ground bus as 2 different conductors. Is this right or does 1 solid conductor go from the ground rod, meter, nuetral/ground bus, water meter?

The electic company clipped and pulled the meter. It is a really old one! Inside it has load and line side, the neutral is a small screw down and there is no breaks in the nuetral. There is also no place to bring a ground conductor. I need to bring new 2AWG AL from the meter to the panel because they are short, How can I cut and install the nuetral and where should I bring the ground? Here is a pic for clarity...


We got all the parts today and I got their old fuse panel off the wall with existing circuits disconnected and labeled. Tomorrow I am going to put in the new breaker panel. The panel uses flat head screws for the mains and torque is listed as 50"lbs. I have no idea how that would feel in a hand driven screw driver, I will just do it almost as hard as I can and then check them again after a few minutes.

Thanks Tom!

Dan