Major Ceiling Cracks - Signs of Acute Structural Probelms?

[mbx]

Hi All,

attached, images of ceiling cracks in various locations in the house. (Top Floor).

The most alarming crack runs the complete length of the ceiling in the living room.

Judging from the images, what would you say? Simple repair or acute problem ? I'm reluctant to call an inspector until I have more perspective on the matter.




Many Thanks for your comments in advance. (!)

[HayZee518]

Acute Problem

the cracks would exist along the sheet to sheet joint. either the furring strip is loose or the whole bottom part of the rafter is shifting [ not being nailed down securely]
the other two photos indicate something other than construction.
in all cases the ceiling would be torn down to inspect what's underneath.
Now, that make your day?

[pushkins]

You wouldn't necessarily need to remove any ceiling, an inspection either by the home owner (carefully) or an inspector could determine the issue if there is one.
From the attic side you'd be looking for separation of (it looks like drywall with the tape) the ceiling surface to the ceiling joists, if there is a gap between the ceiling material and ceiling joists then for some reason the ceiling material is working loose (usually poor attachment). If the ceiling material is still snug against the joists then other area's would need to be looked at.
Try gently pushing against the surface from inside the room, does the ceiling material move a little ?

Most and I did say most structural issues appear as cracks running diagonal across the room walls or corner separation/cracks. That kinda looks from what i can see in your pictures like loose ceiling material.

[mbx]

the cracks would exist along the sheet to sheet joint. either the furring strip is loose or the whole bottom part of the rafter is shifting [ not being nailed down securely]
the other two photos indicate something other than construction.
in all cases the ceiling would be torn down to inspect what's underneath.
Now, that make your day?

OK, thanks for that.
Oh yes, a thrill (previously anticipated) indeed!

Thx

[mbx]

You wouldn't necessarily need to remove any ceiling, an inspection either by the home owner (carefully) or an inspector could determine the issue if there is one.
From the attic side you'd be looking for separation of (it looks like drywall with the tape) the ceiling surface to the ceiling joists, if there is a gap between the ceiling material and ceiling joists then for some reason the ceiling material is working loose (usually poor attachment). If the ceiling material is still snug against the joists then other area's would need to be looked at.
Try gently pushing against the surface from inside the room, does the ceiling material move a little ?

Most and I did say most structural issues appear as cracks running diagonal across the room walls or corner separation/cracks. That kinda looks from what i can see in your pictures like loose ceiling material.

OK great, I'll get up in the attic and report back.
When pushing against the surface from inside of the room, there is some light flexing of the material yes.

Thus far there is only one smaller crack that crawls in a somewhat diagonal pattern.

One additional info:

The cement slab garage flooring has cracked and sunken in the right front corner.
Additionally, on that same wall, cinder blocks have shifted and gaps (approx 1/8") have developed between many blocks.

Two separate issues, or could one be telling about the other?

Many Thanks

[pushkins]

No the two could very well be tied together, there are a few factors that could/would be insightful.
Can you post some more pictures, in particular one from outside showing the part of the house that is effected so we can see where all the damage is taking place in relation to the garage issue.
Are the cinder blocks cracked in a straight line upward (through blocks) or does the crack follow the mortar line in a zig zag pattern ?

[mbx]

No the two could very well be tied together, there are a few factors that could/would be insightful.
Can you post some more pictures, in particular one from outside showing the part of the house that is effected so we can see where all the damage is taking place in relation to the garage issue.
Are the cinder blocks cracked in a straight line upward (through blocks) or does the crack follow the mortar line in a zig zag pattern ?

OK, here we go:

Outside part of the house



Damaged Floor Slab



In the second image you can see how the floor has sunken. 4" drop at deepest level

Damaged Cinder Blocks



Gap spacing between these blocks is approximately 1/4 of an inch

[mbx]

Additional Images



90 Days prior, this entrance door to the garage would not close, i.e. the door overlapped the door pane 3/4" of an inch.

As of today the door has rocked back into usual position and the door closes as it should.

That would indicate to me the housing is rocking back to front to back again.

How do you see it?

[pushkins]

I don't think from your pictures that the garage slab itself has much to do with anything other than it's in need of replacement, reason being is that it cracked and sunk, it looks like the exterior wall pretty much hasn't moved.
The cracks in the cinder block however lead me to think something is going on 1/4" is a big gap, is this gap bigger at the top getting smaller to the bottom ?

Now the door, that would be of a major concern 3/4" + in movement is a lot no matter how you look at it, question for you, 90 days prior was it very dry (or wet) as opposed to now ?
Where was the door hitting, top , bottom, or petty well the whole side ?

[mbx]

I don't think from your pictures that the garage slab itself has much to do with anything other than it's in need of replacement, reason being is that it cracked and sunk, it looks like the exterior wall pretty much hasn't moved.
The cracks in the cinder block however lead me to think something is going on 1/4" is a big gap, is this gap bigger at the top getting smaller to the bottom ?

Now the door, that would be of a major concern 3/4" + in movement is a lot no matter how you look at it, question for you, 90 days prior was it very dry (or wet) as opposed to now ?
Where was the door hitting, top , bottom, or petty well the whole side ?

The house was built in 1974 on a slope at the bottom of a small woods covered mountain. The distance from the back of the house to the treeline is 50feet. Basically, the contractor at the time excavated a flat plateau directly in the slope to set the house upon. Also numerous underground springs run rampant in differing directions under the earth. My assumption is that water is constantly collecting and dispersing depending on weather conditions.

The 3/4in overlap was along the complete length vertical side of the door. Weather conditions were warm and dry the majority of the time. We're in upstate New York so summer temps hit the 90s during the day and rains are intermittent but are sometimes forceful and do dump substantial amounts of water in a short time.

What had me thinking the slab crack a result of house shift is due to the 4" depression in the front right corner. The garage entrance door with the 3/4" overlap issue is on that corner. Perhaps the ground just sunk directly under that corner and that's why the slab cracked. That's how it looks anyway.

Question - would it make any sense to take a level to different parts of the house to get idea of variation or will that just lead to false positives?

I'll throw some more pics up a bit later. Found another crack this morning I hadn't seen before in the same room with the crack running the length of the ceiling. This crack runs horizontally at about 5' height on the wall directly next to the fireplace.

[HayZee518]

location ?

you mentioned upstate ny.
I'm also in NY but midway between Malone and Potsdam.
Where are you referring to?

[mbx]

you mentioned upstate ny.
I'm also in NY but midway between Malone and Potsdam.
Where are you referring to?

Ah OK, I know where that is.

I'm in Pleasant Valley. (Dutchess County)

[pushkins]

It looks like just the slab dropped either from incorrect soil compaction at time of building or the soil is being undermined now, once the soil is washed out the slab cannot support it's own weight. The door being right there at the same location gives rise to a more complex problem, the foundation that supports the wall (with the door in it) obviously must be moving for there to be such a huge swing in the doors ability to close or not.
Does the main garage door close okay ? are there cracks in the cinder blocks near or under the side door in question ? where in relation to the garage is the room with the cracks in it ?

[mbx]

It looks like just the slab dropped either from incorrect soil compaction at time of building or the soil is being undermined now, once the soil is washed out the slab cannot support it's own weight. The door being right there at the same location gives rise to a more complex problem, the foundation that supports the wall (with the door in it) obviously must be moving for there to be such a huge swing in the doors ability to close or not.
Does the main garage door close okay ? are there cracks in the cinder blocks near or under the side door in question ? where in relation to the garage is the room with the cracks in it ?

What you mention sounds very plausible.

The main garage door does close okay.

Cracked cinder blocks begin approx. 4ft from where the door is located. The room with the most significant cracks is at the complete opposite end of the house. What does that indicate? (!)

[mbx]

Ceiling View

What you mention sounds very plausible.

The main garage door does close okay.

Cracked cinder blocks begin approx. 4ft from where the door is located. The room with the most significant cracks is at the complete opposite end of the house. What does that indicate? (!)

Basic mockup of the garage:



Right click on the image and "save as" for full size view