2 GFCI same circuit wont reset

[vdotmatrix]

We had a new addition put in in 2003.

We have 3 out door outlets each with a GFCI duplex.

Tracing all the wires it appears from the 20A breaker in the panel the YELLOW 12A romex goes to an outside GRAY junction/switch box where (3) branches are pigtailed together, and go in their own directions: One is gray outside romex to an OUTSIDE receptacle and the other 2 are yellow 12A that go to receptacles on the side of the house.

Since I can't get the house receptacle GFCIs to reset, I had to figure out what was happening so I hooked up a regular 15A duplex on one of the house branch receptacles and tested says it has an open neutral. The 2nd branch won't light up at all cuz I can get it reset the GFCI.

I want to get a much larger JBOX and rewire everything. This tiny little box seems so small for a GFCI AND 4-12A cables to be pig tailed in there....

I guess I could start there....



QUESTION: Since all 3 branches are PIGTAILED, if there was a ground fault on one would it necessarily trip the others? ( the 3rd OUTSIDE outlet is a considerable distance from the j-box.

Should I have a CFGI at the breaker instead?

Thanks in advance.

[HayZee518]

you have two options here. 1) install one 20 amp breaker and three gfci receptacles, one in each box. 2) install a gfci at the first box, use the downfeed screws to feed two regular receptacles, one in each downstream box. [ disadvantage here, when the gfci trips it will shut off current to the other two receptacles ]

[vdotmatrix]

you have two options here. 1) install one 20 amp breaker and three gfci receptacles, one in each box. 2) install a gfci at the first box, use the downfeed screws to feed two regular receptacles, one in each downstream box. [ disadvantage here, when the gfci trips it will shut off current to the other two receptacles ]

#1 is the CURRENT situation.

Imagine a MERCEDES BENZ emblem with the center being the pigtails. There is NO DOWN STREAM feed except from the panel, which is partly my question.

With a fault ANYWHERE trip the the other 2?

[HayZee518]

you can install a gfci breaker at the panel and replace everything else with conventional receptacles. when the breaker detects a load imbalance it will trip and shut off all three receptacles. you can install a regular 20 amp breaker and separate gfci-s in all three boxes. when one trips the other two will still be live. if the combined load of all three is more than 20 amps, the circuit breaker will trip OR if there is a direct short in any of the three gfi boxes.

[vdotmatrix]

you can install a gfci breaker at the panel and replace everything else with conventional receptacles. when the breaker detects a load imbalance it will trip and shut off all three receptacles. you can install a regular 20 amp breaker and separate gfci-s in all three boxes. when one trips the other two will still be live. if the combined load of all three is more than 20 amps, the circuit breaker will trip OR if there is a direct short in any of the three gfi boxes.

Thanks for the Response: The 3 receptacles are all 20A GFCI with all 3 branches emanating from the pigtails at the one box.

2 of the 3 GFCIs will not reset and these 2 out lets are otherwise DEAD.

As soon as it stops raining I am going to rip out this j-box outside, replace it with a larger box, pullout a few more inches of cable if possible and reconnect everything to rule out electrical mischief in such a crowded box....This pisses me off so much years after the contractor did such %$#^%$ work do I go back and see the crap that passed inspection.

[HayZee518]

sorry you are having such a tough time. hoffman makes a weatherproof gasketed pullbox. this should solve your problems. yeah, your choice how you wish to fix this separate gfci-s or a main gfci breaker to conventional receptacles.

[Speedy Petey]

You are not able to reset the GFI's because of the open neutral upstream of them all. You need to check EVERY box and splice on the circuit, including the connections in the panel to find this open neutral.

Newer GFI devices will not re-set if miswired.

[vdotmatrix]

You are not able to reset the GFI's because of the open neutral upstream of them all. You need to check EVERY box and splice on the circuit, including the connections in the panel to find this open neutral.

Newer GFI devices will not re-set if miswired.

Hey you guys thanks for your help. every post helps me see the bigger picture! I appreciate it. I will post a picture of the finished revamp when done. HOLY cow. There were 4 20A cables, with splices and nuts plus the gfci in this single gang grey plastic all weather box. what a nightmare.

[HayZee518]

every electrical box manufactured has a certain no of cubic inches displacement inside. each wire has a cubic inch displacement, each device also has this. if you are adventurous, seek out "box fill" requirements in the code. each wire is counted as ONE, TWO etc. Each wire clamp is considered as ONE. Each device is considered to be ONE. So, as you pull more wires into a box, eventually you are going to go over the box requirements. oh yeah, all grounds, no matter how many is considered as ONE. For example two 12/2's plus ground and one receptacle, using one internal metal clamp. 12s equals 4, ground five, clamp - six and device equals seven. look in the box fill requirement. you are over capacity by two.

[vdotmatrix]

Yesh!!!! I remember that from the Wiring Simplified 41st edition; great book that simplifies the NEC.

In addition to that box i also have a square grey plastic all-weather box I made all the connections in. I do not know how this %$#@$ passed inspection.

[vdotmatrix]

I suppose I resolved the open neutral issue here since this circuit is pretty much all cleaned up; I hope. Imagine everything that is in the SQUARE box below contained in the small box above ( 4-20A plus the GFCI). Unbelievable!

The big problem I had was deciphering what the Keystone Cops contracting CO. had done to begin with. What I thought was a single pole switch (black wire to the GFCI) turned out to be a switched hot branch from the switch in the closet.

So every time I hooked this thing up thinking it was a switched "black wire", it would trip the breaker. Then After going back and forth at least a dozen times yesterday trying to figure out what this thing was with continuity tests etc, I forgot to zig, when I zagged and ZAPPED myself as my arm brushed a wire I thought was dead. What an effin surprise to get my attention.

Then I opened up the wall plate and examined the wall switch and realized what was going to this box: a hot branch. Then it was just a matter making things nice and neat; I did secure the top box with the 3 remaining screws FYI. LOL

Notice that the keystone cops left a gap to the main panel outside.

I guess I should include the origin of this problem with the GFCI that had the open neutral.

I ripped out the GFCI because I am going to rip out the "box" or whatever this white box is or is not.

Can anyone tell me what this thing is used for because it sure as heck isn't made to hold a GFCI, which BTW, these knuckleheads used wood screw to attach the GFCI.

Had I known a thing or 2 about electrical, I surely would have made their lives at work on my house a living hell.