Wiring with switch and receptacle

[ojaiguy]

Hi,

I have a couple problems. The first is my wiring job (which caused the second problem).

I've got a hot line coming into a junction box and a switch for a simple light fixture (this is all in the attic) above and another line running to a receptacle for the AC below. I ran all whites together, all blacks together and all grounds together (which I now know was wrong). When I restored power to the circuit, the light was on even though the switch was in the "off" position and the thermostat for the AC was on, displaying its temperature. I'm sure it's something involving the switch (for some reason I have a problem with those) but when flipped to the "on" position, the light went out. Now it won't turn on in either position...

Which I believe is due to the second problem. In the breaker box, this circuit has been blown so I went to make sure it was off so I could try and re-wire but the switch is now basically flopping back and forth with no satisfying "thunk" when in either position. Using the voltage detector, I can see that power is still running (which worries me, frankly.)

I guess the first step is the breaker box, then back into the attic. But what can I do to achieve my mission on both fronts?

Many thanks

[Snoonyb]

1st, put your "voltage sensor" away when working behind the dead front panel of an electric service, and purchase a voltmeter.
Place the Neg. probe on the neutral bar of the service and the other on the screw holding the wire on the breaker in question, If there is no reading, loosen the screw, remove and wirenut the wire and remove and replace the breaker, in kind. If there is voltage, shut the main off and proceed as described.

When you have the new breaker installed, unload the circuit before turning it on, by disconnecting and separating the wires at the attic "J" box.
Energize the breaker and identify the hot pair at the "J" box. Wirenut each of the hot pair conductors separately.

From here you can identify what the other conductors feed by resistance (continuity) or by heating up each pair, individually.

Since its my suspicion that its the light circuit that is the root of the problem, open the switch box, remove the sw and tell us about the conductors in this box.

[ojaiguy]

Thanks, SoonyB, I'll check on that and post my findings when I get back from work today.

[ojaiguy]

Ok, that was scary! I might leave this one to the pros. I was using my multimeter to test the breaker and wasn't getting anything. Just to be sure, I tested on a different screw and boom! Sparks went flying and the tip of the probe is now burnt up and the screw is all black. Needless to say, it got my attention.

My question is what did I do to cause this? I had the black probe on the neutral bar and the red on the screw with the multimeter switch in DCV mode.

I think I need to get a better understanding of the fundamentals. Is there a web site that anyone can recommend for this type of information?

Thanks again

[Snoonyb]

Residential power is 60 cycle AC.

Reading no voltage is an indication that the breaker has failed in the off position.

[HayZee518]

Single Pole Switch

Here is a diagram for wiring the single pole switch with a hot exiting to a receptacle

[HayZee518]

what happened is that you were trying to read dc current. there's a rotating switch on the multimeter that says ac. also there is a range switch. if you are testing for voltage choose either ac or dc (house curent is ac) and adjust your range to the highest voltage position indicated on the meter. then you put the black lead on a neutral and the red on a ac hot. and read the meter directly if it is an analog meter ( actually shows a needle) or a digital (shows voltage on a LED chip window)

[ojaiguy]

Thanks, guys. I re-checked and it does look like the breaker is blown. When I go to buy a replacement, is it a "one size fits all" type of thing? (Not physical size obviously).

Thanks for the help -- I really appreciate it.

[HayZee518]

hold it! hold it! don't always think the breaker is shot! just because it tripped - IT'S SUPPOSED TO! If you can't reset it then go buy a replacement but if you can reset it, it's still good.
ANYWAYS, check your panelbox label. This will tell you the manufacturer of the breaker and any special characters you'll need for the replacement. GE, Westinghouse, Challenger, Arrow Hart, Crouse Hinds all will fit the same panelboxes with a few exceptions. Cutler Hammer Square D and Federal Pacific will only fit their panelboxes.

[ojaiguy]

I'd be happy to not spend money on buying a new breaker If it is tripped, how do you reset it? It's just flopping back and forth at the moment.

And I also noticed when I went to pull it out, that it appears to be coupled with one more breaker. Time to shut off at Main and pull the adjoining wire too then, right?

Thanks again!

[Snoonyb]

Correct.
In purchasing the new breaker, pay praticular attention to the slot that fits over the buss bar, some are limiting, replace it in kind.

[HayZee518]

sounds to me that the breaker is coupled to another breaker using the "tie-bar" This is essentially a plastic or metal clip that joins two single pole breakers to form a double or two pole breaker. By using a tie bar it also tells me that the circuits the breaker feeds is probably a multi wire circuit, as in a three wire red, black and white circuit. the white is the common return for the two circuits. You'll have to buy an exact duplicate of the one you are removing to be able to include it under the tie bar.

[ojaiguy]

Hrm, I could have sworn that it was only the single black retained by the one screw. Are the others that you're saying are there beneath the breaker?

Sorry, this has been a crazy week and I'm only now getting back to this.

Thanks!

[HayZee518]

no what I'm saying is that two single pole breakers can be installed in the panelbox and a tie bar is installed across the two handles making essentially a two pole breaker. If one side trips it is supposed to trip out the other one. AND usually a multi wire circuit is connected to a two pole breaker, so when you shut it off both circuits are off. a receptacle can be made a multi-wire circuit by breaking off the tab between the two brass screws and connected to a 12/3 romex. The white wire is the neutral for both circuits and each half receptacle is on a 20 amp or 15 amp breaker depending on how it is used. I believe you said that one half of the breaker isn't functioning.

[leone184]

electrical

Holy cow guys, I'm all for saving money & doing it yourself, but it sounds like this guy is in way over his head. After reading all the posts, I think it would be a better idea for him to have an electrician take a look at both the breaker and the the box and the "repairs" that caused this mess.