Ouch! Got a shocker...

[maclean]

So, new home manufactured by Palm Harbor, with a garage added by contractor.

Climbed up on the roof to check on a flue cap for the water heater, and as I grabbed the gutter I got a shock that was pretty substantial.

I went and grabbed my meter, and just by sticking the common probe into the ground and touching the red to the gutter I got 66 - 72 volts.

Now, I am not an expert, but I'm certain gutters don't carry juice.

I checked the gutter on the other side of the house and got 108 volts.

Working with a partner, I shut off breakers until the juice went away.

The offending breaker powers the laundry room light, and two exterior lights.

So, I have no lights - but my gutters won't kill anyone either.

All four gutter downspouts showed voltage to ground, and none of them are connected together - the gutters are in four separate pieces.

The roof is wet, so maybe it is conducting? The gutter ends are each shoved into PVC that goes into the ground and a common drain system, so in theory they are somewhat insulated from the ground immediately around the house.

Thoughts?

[HayZee518]

your next "train of thought" is to restore power to the system and use a battery operated drill with a screwdriver tip and remove screws one at a time until you find the culprit. if nails are used remove them one at a time [with power OFF] and recheck for zero volts. I would tend to believe the downspouts are the problem. they, being at the corners, they may have penetrated any home runs along the vertical corner framing lumber. wires are nailed up along the inside of a stud space. removing a nail [one which may have penetrated the cable insulation] but not fully engaging a ground or neutral is your problem.

[Speedy Petey]

Do you have aluminum siding or trim?

I think the problem is in one of the outside lights. Try removing all of them and checking for a pinched wire. Then, with the lights still down and all wires checked check the gutter for voltage. DO NOT use the earth as your ground. This is a very inaccurate way to check. the earth is NOT a source of ground for electrical circuits. The word "ground" is VERY misleading as far as circuit are concerned (if that makes any sense).
Use the gorund hole of an extension cord to make your tests.

[maclean]

The siding is Hardie plank - concrete.

How would power from the exterior lights get to the gutters?

[maclean]

OK, at the request of my local electrician, I ran over to the house and did some more testing.

I used the ground of a plugged in extension cord this time.

I get 65 volts +/- at three of the gutter downspouts.

At one downspout, I get 110 volts between the gutter and extension cord ground - AND 110 volts between the gutter and extension cord neutral.

I believe whoever hit on the gutter screws may have had a point.

I'm thinking of creating a pigtail light socket, connecting the neutral to the neutral on an extension cord and connecting the hot to the gutter, then removing screws until the light goes out with an insulated cordless drill.

I also plan to disconnect the lights, just to make sure that isn't an issue, but one thing at a time.

[HayZee518]

the lighting pigtail is a good idea. I had a similar situation in a house where the homeowner installed a handicap rail in a bathroom. if you touched the faucet and bath rail you'd get a shock. I read 121 volts between the faucet and the rail. I done what I told you to do, removing screws one at a time until the volts read zero and just left this screw out. the screw point penetrated the cable jacket and just the black wire.

[maclean]

the lighting pigtail is a good idea. I had a similar situation in a house where the homeowner installed a handicap rail in a bathroom. if you touched the faucet and bath rail you'd get a shock. I read 121 volts between the faucet and the rail. I done what I told you to do, removing screws one at a time until the volts read zero and just left this screw out. the screw point penetrated the cable jacket and just the black wire.

OK I disconnected the lights and that did not resolve the issue - the light did not turn off.

The gutter downspout screws were backed out and did not resolve the issue - the light did not turn off.

I have now determined that the circuit also powers the kitchen lights and the 120V to the gas range - helps to have someone standing in there when you turn the circuit off and on.

So, I still have an energized roof and gutters when that circuit is activated, and no visible penetrations along the vertical nearest the hottest gutter.

They wouldn't run wires inside the soffet would they?

Also, assuming I find the offending screw - do I need to replace the wire or will it be ok to leave it? Everything on the circuit works fine, so I assume there is no short.

[HayZee518]

ideally it would be a good idea to insulate the penetration but if you have to go through a whole bunch, since one wire was penetrated I wouldn't worry too, too much. all it took was a pinprick at the site.

[maclean]

Still no luck finding this guy....

I have determined it has to be on the hot side of the switches, as the gutter still gets power with all the switches on the circuit off.

[mrcaptainbob]

Shock hazard...

Since you have that pigtail hooked up to the gutter, switch off each breaker in turn in the panel 'till the light goes out. This will lead you to which interior circuit is being contacted by the gutter system and may lead you to where a possible contact would be.

[maclean]

Since you have that pigtail hooked up to the gutter, switch off each breaker in turn in the panel 'till the light goes out. This will lead you to which interior circuit is being contacted by the gutter system and may lead you to where a possible contact would be.

Sorry if I didn't make clear above Bob, but we have isolated the circuit breaker already.

It's a breaker labled "lights" that feeds a closet lamp, a bathroom light and fan, a range outlet, three sets of lights in the kitchen, the laundry room ceiling light, and two exterior lights.

[maclean]

New news, or so to speak...

Further investigation reveals 2 volts at one shower head on the side of the house closest to the gutter. I can touch the shower head and feel no tingle.

My "blooper" also sounds off on any horizontal metal piece like shower curtain rods or towel bars on that side of the house, but only when the circuit in question is on at the breaker. They show no voltage.

Weird shit.

[mrcaptainbob]

Shock hazard...

Sorry, maclean. I reread your first post on this and it finally sunk in! Interesting how so many items in your house are being charged. You mentioned it's a manufactured home. Would it have metal studs? Sounds like the whole house is being charged by that particular circuit so that any thing that's in contact with a wall 'stud' becomes part of that circuit. Geees, this is dangerous...

[maclean]

Sorry, maclean. I reread your first post on this and it finally sunk in! Interesting how so many items in your house are being charged. You mentioned it's a manufactured home. Would it have metal studs? Sounds like the whole house is being charged by that particular circuit so that any thing that's in contact with a wall 'stud' becomes part of that circuit. Geees, this is dangerous...

It's wood 2x6 frame construction...

The new thing now is the dishwasher outlet stopped working. Breaker is on, but no juice.

The homebuilder is working on it, but nobody seems to be able to diagnose it.

[maclean]

Yay!

A big shout to Al at Reliant Electric in Kirkland, who used some sort of trace machine to locate the offending wire - a feeder to the switches located between my child's closet and his bathroom.

Apparently a screw had been driven through the wire.

All better now!