Isolating Existing circuit

[HayZee518]

so, your work is cut out for you - isolate the whole bathroom from any connections with the hall and yer set. then refeed your bathroom with 12/2 as you had planned. remember to use a gfci for the outlet, a two wire receptacle will not do!

[vdotmatrix]

I went back up in the attic after shutting off the breaker to this part of the house just now and to recap:

3-wire comes from hall box to control the hall lite and continues to bathroom box as

2-wire; 3-wire leaves bathroom box headed to vanity box to control vanity lite.

2)-2-wire branches split off, one to the attic lite and the other I assume to power the entire baby's room.

BUT THEN A TWIST OF ASSUMPTION AND A SHOCKING EXPERIENCE NARROWLY AVERTED occured!

SO! I am ready to predict that inside the baby's room light switch, I should find a 2-wire and a 3-wire as we saw in the hall way switch box.....I am feeling all smug and electrical and all!!!

I take the switch cover off and grab the dimmer light switch from the box to look under her skirt and look. To my disappointment there is only a 2-wire feeding this switch. I scratch my head and start to replace the switch and cover plate when my hand flicks the switch to the "ON" position and the overhead light comes on......I nearly shit! The circuit was live... dumbass!

So this room has a separate circuit for the ceiling light. GO FIGURE!

The 2 wall sockets are OFF and are a part of the supply coming from the vanity box- I assume cuz it is OFF.....

The branch off the hall lite box feeds the ENTIRE back bedroom sockets and lights.

So, not too consistent for the wiring scheme back in 1956.

I could have had a real jolt this morning and not from my STARBUCKS....

CONCLUSION:
I think I can run a section of 14/2 DOWN the wall to the hall switch and replace the section of 14/2 going to the bath switch box and splice into the 3-wire coming from the bathroom and going to the vanity box inside of a j-box thus isolating this EXERCISE in electrical forensics.

VERY COOL! If you guys agree with this synopsis I'll proceed !

[vdotmatrix]

YES.

This explains the current circuit.

With my understanding at this point, when I remove the bathroom wiring, I will join the "old wiring" together in a j-box in the attic with out regard to the red since it isn't switching that light any longer (should I pig tail the reds and the blacks 2-wire + 3-wires?).

The 2 wires leaving the vanity box, now that I think about it and will confirm this later this morning is the continuing branch to the terminating bedroom and the other goes straight up to power the attic light, which at the time years ago terminated in a light socket with a pull chain and since, a previous owner had spliced into it that and added an outside light,attic fan and light switch for the attic light, but that doesn't concern us.

I am running 2 12/2 20A circuits according to my electrical permit, one to supply the heater in the fan/ light unit, the other to supply the 20ACFGI outlet, vanity light, fan/light overhead.

Bburger,any chance this is Biff Burger, a 60's burger chain in the south?

Thanks

v.

[BBurger]

I think the thing that isn't connecting for me is why in there a 2-wire and a 3-wire going to the hall lite switch?

On your diagram, the 3-wire brings the hot and neutral from the hall light to the hall switch on the black & white wires, and returns the switched hot to power the hall light on the red wire. The 2-wire cable takes the hot and neutral by themselves to the bathroom switch.

At the bathroom switch box, the 2-wire (old wiring) brings power from the hall switch to the 2 devices in that box. They appear to be a double-switch (vanity, fan) and a device with 1 switch (heater) and 1 receptacle. The incoming hot is connected to the double-switch (fan, vanity) and jumpered to the other device (heater, receptacle).

The 3-wire in the bathroom takes the hot (black) and neutral to the vanity, while also taking the switched hot along (red) to power the vanity.

The 2 cables you label UF (probably romex rather than UF) contain the neutrals and switched hots running to the heater and fan.

At the vanity the 3-wire brings in the hot (black), neutral and switched hot (red). The red powers the vanity and stops there, while the hot and neutral leave on 2 cables taking power elsewhere. (You need to determine where these 2 cables go from the vanity.)

Note that you can no longer use the old device that has a receptacle on it in the bathroom since bathroom receps must be gfci-protected and on a 20A bathroom circuit. If there is a non-gfci receptacle included in the vanity, you should disconnect it.

[vdotmatrix]

I think the thing that isn't connecting for me is why in there a 2-wire and a 3-wire going to the hall lite switch?

[HayZee518]

login to the forum chat program at the top of the page says CHAT

[HayZee518]

NO! the white and black supply power to the bathroom. you got yahoo messenger?

[vdotmatrix]

Great! so it is the 2-wire is the key for this kind of wiring scheme. You called the continuous feed.

Inthe Bathroom switch BOX: The 2-wire that supplys the outlet only contributes the white (nuetral wire), The black comes from the 3-wire from the light switch.

[HayZee518]

ok, then, the two wire out of the hall switchbox goes to the almost back to back bathroom box. so you got a hot in here. this wire you'll want to remove out of this box and run it into the attic to a square junction box. this will be your continuous feed to the other bedroom, and isolate the bathroom. [for your dedicated 20 amp - 12 wire]

[HayZee518]

from what you are telling me what I see is a two wire from the panel to the hallway light box. then a three wire from that box to a wall switch box and then a two wire to the bedroom OR bathroom. the feeder is in the hall lite box. the whites are spliced here. the black of the two wire and the three wire are spliced. the red goes to the hall light [black fixture wire] at the wall switchbox the white of the out going two wire is spliced to the three wire white. [this carries the neutral on through] the three wire black and the two wire black plus a black pigtail are spliced. the pigtail goes to a switch terminal and the red goes to the other switch terminal. this turns on-off the hall light. the two wire coming out of this box goes where? bedroom or bath?

[vdotmatrix]

hmmm, i think from the hall lite box the 3-wire to goes to the hall lite switch (this box has the 3-wire and a 2-wire in and out) instead of directly to the vanity box?.

I can see the bathroom box and vice versa from the hall lite switch box (since they are adjacent inside the same wall almost touching inside the wall) so I think the cabling goes to the bathroom box next, instead of the vanity box which appears to be further down the line and up high on the wall.

Remember, the bathroom switches also have a SINGLE 110 outlet in that box so it has juice. (2-prong, no GFCI). hope this doesn't confuse the picture more.

[vdotmatrix]

wow! yes to the very last question. I don't need any of those.

I saw example(s) of this style of wiring in BLACK and DECKER's complete Guide to HOME WIRING 2001, the 2-wire/3-wire runs.

Do they still wire houses this way today? to save wire by sharing, WHAT?, the neutral wire right?

Once I can isolate this circuit I can blast though the rest of the project! Thanks for taking the time!

It is fun for you figuring out this stuff for folks right!!! I know I appreciate having a place like this to share my experiences and to learn from the more experienced giants in this field...thanks again! v.

[HayZee518]

I redrew your diagram so I could better understand it. You've got a feeder for the hall, which extends to a bedroom, then goes to the bathroom vanity lamp round box, then comes out of there and goes to the other bedroom. Since you have access from the attic, I'll suggest you put a four inch square box near the vicinity of the wall partition between the bedroom and bath vanity lamp and feed the 14/2 that comes from the hallway ceiling box to the square box. Then hopefully you'll have enough of slack to bring the two wires you have coming out of the vanity lite box to the square box. You'll be eliminating the existing line from the hallway to the vanity lite box. I don't think you'll have the length to use the existing line. The hallway light switch stays the same. the new two wire splices onto the feeder from the panelbox. the new wire from the hallway box to the square box splices onto the two wire going to the outlets in the other bedroom and the switch loop black goes to the feed black with a black taped white going to the ceiling lamp of THAT bedroom. This will completely isolate all the boxes and fixtures in the bathroom. If I got you right more will follow.
All the 14 in the bathroom will have to come out as you are going to use two dedicated 20 amp circuits for the bathroom if I understood you.

[vdotmatrix]

Here are the diagrams .

Essentially there is a 14/2 circuit that runs along the house to the hall lite j-box. From there a 3-wire heads off i think to the hall light switch (this has a 2-wire and 3-wire in and out, see diagram). the bathroom switch box controls a single vanity light, ceiling heat lamp and fan as wellas has a single 110v outlet. (see diagram) Next it looks like 3-wire heads off to the vanity light box from the bathroom switch box. In there I see the 3-wire, a 2-wire and another 2-wire....this all heads to the adjacent room to power an over head light, and 2 wall outlets where I do believe this circuit terminates....

[vdotmatrix]

I am psyched that you know exactly what I am talking about....

I will collect all the diagrams I made as I opened up each box and post them. I had an idea i was going to need this when I started seeing 3-wire stuff.

All I am concerned with are the switch legs to the existing fan/heat in the bathroom and I 've identified them. I see the same kind of phenom. at the existing vanity light where the 3-wire and 2-wire interact (wire pigtails) and then one or the other continues to the next fixture in the next room....which of course i am not concerned with.....Once i understand the wiring pattern, I will see how the 2 and 3 wire interacts in the existing bathroom wall switch box,and then can isolate that circuit!

I am lucky on this project because it seems like the wiring travels across the floor in the attic and I have open access to it. So, I won't have to worry about correct box size and volume for max. numbers of conductors per box and I can pull the wires up or cut them and make splices in a j-box up in the ceiling and be done with that but first have to ensure circuit continuity......

Once all this noise is addressed, I can finish pulling the NEW 12/2's for this circuit!

Thanks for your time!





!!!!! Yippeee!