Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

[HayZee518]

what's the sense in having glycol in the system if you are going to keep thinning it out with water. when you heat water you are going to drive out the oxygen and hydrogen gas dissolved in the water. that's the reason for the expansion tank and air bleed. you want liquid circulating, not an air bubble. you can't circulate liquid if there is a bubble at the inlet to a pump. the pump gets air bound so with no liquid the pump stops functioning, until it primes again with liquid.

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

what's the sense in having glycol in the system if you are going to keep thinning it out with water. when you heat water you are going to drive out the oxygen and hydrogen gas dissolved in the water. that's the reason for the expansion tank and air bleed. you want liquid circulating, not an air bubble. you can't circulate liquid if there is a bubble at the inlet to a pump. the pump gets air bound so with no liquid the pump stops functioning, until it primes again with liquid.

It is a common practice to run antifreeze in a in floor heating system. There are heating line loops that can be close to the outer edge of the slab. If you have a power outage and your not home you might get a line brook that you cant get to it to repair.
The reason for a expansion is when you heat any fluid it expanses so if you don't have a place for it to expand to , it will build up too much pressure.
The expansion and auto feed valve is what maintains the proper pressure in the system The law says auto feed valves will be open at all times.
The pump in his case is self priming, the air will go through it and be caught in the air eliminator,
and out the auto bleeder. Paul

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

I get it...it's more of an centrifugal pump rather than like a sump pump -
which is capable of moving water upwards of 15 ft.

still, it seems fairly weak do you think?
It certainly didn't push the heated water very far away
down the line from the water tank.

"if your tank is water-logged"?
I don't understand that question.
Would you mean the "air canister"?
If so, what's the best way to check that component?

"I don't know if you feed valve works"
If I would have to guess, I'd say yes because of how "pink" the Glycol mixture has now become since I was flushing so much out with my garden
hose on the "COLD" return pipe near the top of the water heater.
I think I've thrown out about 25 gallons or more of old anti-freeze mixture since I've started working on this a few days ago.
I've used the cold freshwater feed valve to replenish the system all along.

I do not know what the volume of the Glycol mixture in the lines.
All I can say is that all the components I have on hand here have already been in service
and have been in exceptional working order for the past 7-8 years.

I believe it's more of a matter of determining what components of this system
have lost their integrity and need replacement.
Would you agree?

Your question about the "feed valve" got me thinking
and I wanted to see the Glycol/water ratio so I grabbed an
old hydrometer out of my garage.
I added a couple of pictures of a Hydrometer containing plain water
and the same hydrometer containing some of the Glycol mixture
that's been in there for the past 7-8 years - it looks like I will be needing to
replenish it with a more higher ratio of Glycol to get it up to par?
Should be easy to fill up the water heater with the pump removed?
Just turn the brass screw vertical, stick a funnel in there
and pour in some pure anti-freeze right?

Click on any photo to make larger if needed...>>>

You said you think that the feed valve works, you have feed the water in by hitting the fast feed handle on the top of the feed valve. That is not letting use know if a auto feed valve works. Please forget about putting more antifreeze in the system until we know what all works.
You are suppose to be using a non toxic antifreeze in this system, and if you are, it can not be tested with the tester you use on cars. You have to use test tapes on it.

still, it seems fairly weak do you think?
It certainly didn't push the heated water very far away
down the line from the water tank.
If the system is air locked, the pump can not move the water around.

I asked once, how did you check and put air into the expansion Tank??

If HayZee518 does not get this going for you, let me know and i will tell
you how to power flush the system to get all the air out so we can get her going and test everything. Paul

[HayZee518]

Paul got a question for you. In your answer above you mention a line brook. What is that???
If you have a power outage and your not home you might get a line brook that you cant get to it to repair.

[Stayouttadabunker]

I asked once, how did you check and put air into the expansion Tank??

I answered your question in reply #11. Thanks.

You said you think that the feed valve works, you have feed the water in by hitting the fast feed handle on the top of the feed valve. That is not letting use know if a auto feed valve works.

You're right...I have no idea how to check it the way you want me to.
I am merely lifting the the feed lever to allow fresh water into the system.
In your opinion, what's the BEST way to check it's proper operation?

You have to use test tapes on it.

Kind of like the ones used for swimming pools?
If you look at the photograph I attached to the post, my Hydrometer
says "Glycol" as one of the liquids it is capable of checking for?

what's the sense in having glycol in the system if you are going to keep thinning it out with water.

I didn't designed it that way...I was only trying to bring the pressure up and maintain it to around 12LBS on the heater tank pressure gauge.

a line brook

I think Paul means "a broken pipe"

I'll try to make it out today, Saturday. I'll call beforehand.
Looking at your photo-s and diagrams, certain questions pop up. First is - you should have a matched set of heater elements. Pix #1 shows a 4500 watt element, #2 shows a 6600 watt element. The difference here is that the 4500 watt element draws 18.75 amps, the 6600 watt element draws about 27 amps. 4500 divided by 240 gives 18.75, 6600 divided by 240 gives 27.5 amps. OK, the way you got it connected, what is the master element that turns on the whole setup? slab stat? circulator stat? I question this because each element has its own thermostat too! Should be power from tha panel to a relay hot. Load side of the relay to the heater. upper element turns on first. when it is satisfied it swaps to the lower thermostat and its element. when the lower element is satisfied it opens and no heat is produced. when the water/glycol mix circulates, the return water is cooler than the outgoing so the bottom element turns on, if the temperature can't be met, the upper one turns on etc. all the time the recirculator is running. you shouldn't need to keep the fill valve open because you are not consuming water for use. you have a closed system. once the air is out you don't add water for any reason unless your slab manifold has a leak.
what size breaker is feeding the heater and circulator. is the circulator using one side of the 240 feed to obtain 120 volts for its operation?

whew! That's a loaded question! LOL
I tried earlier to show you high-resolution photographs of the wiring hook up this system has.
I took very good photos of the two element panel holes on the Lowboy and I drew and highlighted some high-resolution pictures of the water heater panel box and it's switches and wiring.
I don't know what else to show you?
I can hand draw out the wiring and make a wiring schematic if you would like me to.
That will take a while...
("Mark running around trying to find some paper and a pencil...")

[Stayouttadabunker]

One thing a don't remember for sure, In the center of your pump you have that round silver thing that looks like a plug. Can you put pliers on that and gently
see if it on screws. If it does there will be a o ring seal so when you take it out it will leak a little water. if that plug comes out then that gets you into the end of the shaft, so you can put a small screw driver in there and see if the pump is running. Paul

Thanks Paul however, the Grundfos manual I uploaded to Reply # 15 tells me pretty much the way you've described to check this?
See attachment below this post...>>>

[Stayouttadabunker]

I'll try to make it out today, Saturday. I'll call beforehand.
Looking at your photo-s and diagrams, certain questions pop up. First is - you should have a matched set of heater elements. Pix #1 shows a 4500 watt element, #2 shows a 6600 watt element. The difference here is that the 4500 watt element draws 18.75 amps, the 6600 watt element draws about 27 amps. 4500 divided by 240 gives 18.75, 6600 divided by 240 gives 27.5 amps. OK, the way you got it connected, what is the master element that turns on the whole setup? slab stat? circulator stat? I question this because each element has its own thermostat too! Should be power from tha panel to a relay hot. Load side of the relay to the heater. upper element turns on first. when it is satisfied it swaps to the lower thermostat and its element. when the lower element is satisfied it opens and no heat is produced. when the water/glycol mix circulates, the return water is cooler than the outgoing so the bottom element turns on, if the temperature can't be met, the upper one turns on etc. all the time the recirculator is running. you shouldn't need to keep the fill valve open because you are not consuming water for use. you have a closed system. once the air is out you don't add water for any reason unless your slab manifold has a leak.
what size breaker is feeding the heater and circulator. is the circulator using one side of the 240 feed to obtain 120 volts for its operation?

I took some pictures of the water heater panels breakers back from
at the main panel box it's getting the power from.
Red wire is 35A, while black wire is 30A.

They run out the the heater panel box on the wall near the Lowboy.
I think the breakers can handle the Lowboys heater elements?

I'm still working on trying to answer your other questions...
see attachments below...>>>

-mark

[HayZee518]

Mark, I'll be over tomorrow around 10 AM. I sent you a private msg. Tom

[paul52446m]

» Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Thanks Paul however, the Grundfos manual I uploaded to Reply # 15 tells me pretty much the way you've described to check this?
See attachment below this post...>>>

HayZee518 is right on the elements. On you tag on the front of the heater, it tell you that both elements are to be 4500 watts. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

YOU'RE DA MAN Hayzee!
I'll be home...
I'll take a Shop Vac in a few minutes and get rid of
some spider webs and junk.
Bring a truck! LOL We may have to run into town
and pick up a new heater? lol
All I have is a Chevy Impala!


Now why in the world would the HVAC installer put in two different heater elements 7-8 years ago when he installed it?
Does that make any sense?

Think I oughta pick up a pair of matching 4500's and drain the tank and install them?

[Stayouttadabunker]

OK, the way you got it connected, what is the master element that turns on the whole setup? slab stat? circulator stat? I question this because each element has its own thermostat too!

There are two stats on top of the water heater panel box.
The left stat is the "Outdoor Lockout" stat.
It is set for 47 degrees and does not allow the system to turn on
if the outdoor air is higher than 47 degrees.

The right stat on top of the water heater panel box is the "Slab" stat.
But it is not going upstairs.
Instead its sensor is taped to the "HOT" outlet pipe
under the Grundfos circulator pump.
That one is set for about 72 degrees.

If I were to guess, I'd say that the "Outdoor Lockout" stat -
controls this whole shebang...lol

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

There are two stats on top of the water heater panel box.
The left stat is the "Outdoor Lockout" stat.
It is set for 47 degrees and does not allow the system to turn on
if the outdoor air is higher than 47 degrees.

The right stat on top of the water heater panel box is the "Slab" stat.
But it is not going upstairs.
Instead its sensor is taped to the "HOT" outlet pipe
under the Grundfos circulator pump.
That one is set for about 72 degrees.

If I were to guess, I'd say that the "Outdoor Lockout" stat -
controls this whole shebang...lol

do you have a book on this system and how it is suppose to work?
If both stats can turn off the elements, then the slab stat will turn off the elements and never let more than 72 degrees water temp to the slab. That would mean that the stats on the elements in the heater are just limit controls. You don't get much heat out of 72 degree water. This does not heat the room, just the slab, right? Is this slab insulated under it? I would think that when it 60 out side and the ground temp under the slab is under 60 all the time, that you would still want to heat the slab. Maybe you need to do a little reading on this. Paul

[HayZee518]

From what I can deduce from the system, the lockout thermostat is the master element of the system. when the outside temp is up, the thermostat is open and keeps anything from functioning. there's a bypass switch which I'm assuming is normally open until closed to allow the heater to heat the water/glycol mix. the other thermostat the way its worded has its sensing bulb on the outgoing pipe right below the circulator, which, as you describe will shut off the whole system when the water reaches the "stat's" set point of 72 degrees. I feel the bulb should be on the return piping measuring the return water temperature. Essentially the upper water heater surface stat should be at 120 degrees. the bottom surface stat should be at least 140 degrees so it closes when water at the bottom of the dip tube hits it and it senses THAT temperature. In other words the bottom element will be the work-horse of the system. I'm going over there tomorrow so we'll see what's what - HayZee

[paul52446m]

I don't see why you would use a outdoor stat on a system like yours. I don't care what the temp is out side, i would want to heat my slab to 72 degrees. You use a outdoor stat when you are heating a outside sidewalk. You use one to use less temp in your boiler water in the warmer weather. At 47 degrees out side does not mean that slab will stay at 72 degrees. The slab is fighting ground temp, not out side temp, and ground temp under the slab is always less then 72 degrees. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

do you have a book on this system and how it is suppose to work?
If both stats can turn off the elements, then the slab stat will turn off the elements and never let more than 72 degrees water temp to the slab. That would mean that the stats on the elements in the heater are just limit controls. You don't get much heat out of 72 degree water. This does not heat the room, just the slab, right? Is this slab insulated under it? I would think that when it 60 out side and the ground temp under the slab is under 60 all the time, that you would still want to heat the slab. Maybe you need to do a little reading on this. Paul

A little history...
When the home was built in 1986, it was zoned 4 ways.
Zone 1] Sun room & Kitchen/Dining slab
Zone 2] Bathroom & bedroom slab
Zone 3] Dog Kennel Slab
Zone 4] Outdoor swimming pool

The dog kennel and pool zones were essentially removed from the system around 1990 as too much heat was being taken away from the main house.
Now get this, the main house has a complete air ducting system which is hooked up to a Cantherm Duo 510 Ground Source system which relied on a constant ground water incoming source of around 50 degrees.
The Cantherm compressor pump squeezed Glycol into an air heat exchanger and a blower forced hot air up through the ducting system throughout the main house and bedrooms.
Anyways, it was deduced that the dog kennel was drawing too much of the heating and was then separated from the Cantherm around 1990.
They also figured that since no one was using the pool anymore - the pool zone was also removed from the system.
( That was the piping and wiring I asked you guys to ignore in the photos of the water heater panel box )

Cantherm has long been out of business and absolutely every plumbing or HVAC contractor in the area just scratches their heads when seeing this system. LOL
I have to explain how this system works to them....
local plumbers are dumber than boxes of rocks and HVAC contractors only want to charge us no less than $40-$50 thousand dollars to replace the entire system and throw in an hot air oil furnace.
Sheet! I can do that! lol
I did get in contact with the only licensed installer of the original Cantherm system but he has long since moved out to Colorado.
He was trying to help me at first but has a lot of family problems and has lost his notes.
I still retain the original Cantherm Duo 510 system brochure but that was all I could ever find on it.
Out on the internet, there is nearly nothing on this system except very old brochures in archives and are really next to useless.
So, I got into it and learned everything I could about it.

I know more about how this system works than any HVAC contractor or plumber from around a 100 miles of here.
They just get wide-eyed when I explain how it works and their only response is either "We'll get back to you" or " You have what was at one time - the Cadillac of heating systems"...lololololol
I LOVE that one! haha!
Absolutely none of them came back...lol
So, to get heat in here, I bought some firewood for the woodstove ( It a main backup source anyways) and for about $15, I totally rebuilt a Monitor MPI 422 kero heater which works excellent.
I really need to try and get these slabs heated again and to answer your question -No, there are no books in existence on this setup.
It was devised by the last HVAC from Colorado to get the single Sun Room slab working.
I need to buy another hot water heater and do the same setup for the other slabs soon as well.
Once I get this one up and running - it will be a piece of cake to set up the other slabs.
As for the Cantherm Duo 510...it's going to the dump soon.
It will never be in Smithsonian Museum.

As for reading on this?
I've done more than you'll ever care to know...lol
Attached below is a photo I took from the original Cantherm Manual...>>>