Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

A little history...
When the home was built in 1986, it was zoned 4 ways.
Zone 1] Sun room & Kitchen/Dining slab
Zone 2] Bathroom & bedroom slab
Zone 3] Dog Kennel Slab
Zone 4] Outdoor swimming pool

The dog kennel and pool zones were essentially removed from the system around 1990 as too much heat was being taken away from the main house.
Now get this, the main house has a complete air ducting system which is hooked up to a Cantherm Duo 510 Ground Source system which relied on a constant ground water incoming source of around 50 degrees.
The Cantherm compressor pump squeezed Glycol into an air heat exchanger and a blower forced hot air up through the ducting system throughout the main house and bedrooms.
Anyways, it was deduced that the dog kennel was drawing too much of the heating and separated from the Cantherm around 1990.
They also figured that since no one was using the pool anymore - the pool zone was also removed from the system.
( That was the piping and wiring I asked you guys to ignore in the photos of the water heater panel box )

Cantherm has long been out of business and absolutely every plumbing or HVAC contractor in the area just scratches their heads when seeing this system. LOL
I have to explain how this system works to them....
local plumbers are dumber than boxes of rocks and HVAC contractors only want to charge us no less than $40-$50 thousand dollars to replace the entire system and throw in an hot air oil furnace.
Sheet! I can do that! lol
I did get in contact with the only licensed installer of the original Cantherm system but he has long since moved out to Colorado.
He was trying to help me at first but has a lot of family problems and has lost his notes.
I still retain the original Cantherm Duo 510 system brochure but that was all I could ever find on it.
Out on the internet, there is nearly nothing on this system except very old brochures in archives and are really next to useless.
So, I got into it and learned everything I could about it.

I know more about how this system works than any HVAC contractor or plumber from around a 100 miles of here.
They just get wide-eyed when I explain how it works and their only response is either "We'll get back to you" or " You have what was at one time - the Cadillac of heating systems"...lololololol
I LOVE that one! haha!
Absolutely none of them came back...lol
So, to get heat in here, I bought some firewood for the woodstove ( It a main backup source anyways) and for about $15, I totally rebuilt a Monitor MPI 422 kero heater which works excellent.
I really need to try and get these slabs heated again and to answer your question -No, there are no books in existence on this setup.
It was devised by the last HVAC from Colorado to get the single Sun Room slab working.
I need to buy another hot water heater and do the same setup for the other slabs soon as well.
Once I get this one up and running - it will be a piece of cake to set up the other slabs.
As for the Cantherm Duo 510...it's going to the dump soon.
It will never be in Smithsonian Museum.

As for reading on this?
I've done more than you'll ever care to know...lol
Attached below is a photo I took from the original Cantherm Manual...>>>

I under stand now so you are just trying to heat the one slab now and not the room with this system. Right?
So you have the 30 gal. heater and one loop going into the slab. Right?
First of all, this slabs heat loss is the ground under it, so it has nothing to do with out side temp, so do away with it.
All you want to do is maintain slab temp. Right?
Leave the slab stat where it is at on the out going line. Take the paper out from behind it and wrap insulation around it so it reads the pipe temp better.
Right now it is a guessing game on where to set the elements in the heater.
but i would not go any higher then 120 for now. We don't want to crack the slab.
We are going to have to power purge the system to get the air out of it.
We can get all the air out that way in a very short time.
Before we do this there are a few things i want you to do. Don't worry about putting antifreeze in till much later. You should replace that auto bleeder.
you should take the expansion tank off and put a 1/4 turn ball valve between the tank and where it ties in, this way you can change or service the tank with out draining the system. this is done so you don't lose your antifreeze.
The pump can not push the air out of the loop.
I will have to make you a diagram on how to do this.
I have a large boiler license that goes up to hi pressure steam and water, and i have been doing this for over 40 years.
Paul
paulm989@hotmail.com
989-422-3243

[Stayouttadabunker]

First of all, this slabs heat loss is the ground under it, so it has nothing to do with out side temp, so do away with it*.
(* the Outdoor Lockout Thermostat)
I agree with you on this - HayZee removed the outdoor temperature lockout thermostat.

Leave the slab stat where it is at on the out going line.
That was removed from the out-going line and placed on the return line.


Right now it is a guessing game on where to set the elements in the heater.
but i would not go any higher then 120 for now. We don't want to crack the slab.
The two element temperature adjustments are set at 110 degrees.
Right now it's not cold enough to crack the slab, and the slabs
are at above ground temperatures.
There is vapor barrier and some blue looks like bubble wrap
sort of insulation underneath them.
I was told the wire mesh was installed with the slab as well
as aluminum heat dispersers?
The wire was supposed to do two things - help strengthen the concrete
and help disperse heat.
I believe the aluminum was for helping spread the heating
more evenly throughout the concrete...I could be wrong on this.



We are going to have to power purge the system to get the air out of it.
No. We are not.
I told you that there was no air coming out of the drain pipe or the bleeder
and that I had a steady stream of Glycol mixture.


You should replace that auto bleeder.
No. It is working fine. There is no air in the lines.
That would be a waste of money don't you think?


you should take the expansion tank off and put a 1/4 turn ball valve between the tank and where it ties in, this way you can change or service the tank with out draining the system. this is done so you don't lose your antifreeze.
I totally agree with you on this as just about any plumbing system should be set up that way to change out components as easily as possible.

I have a large boiler license that goes up to hi pressure steam and water, and i have been doing this for over 40 years.
Cool! That's a long time!

Here's an update...HAyZee came over this morning and removed
the outdoor lockout thermostat and had me remove the "Slab"
thermostat bulb sensor as well.
It is now attached to the ingoing line to the Lowboy.

HayZee checked all the wiring out with his tools
and we re-installed the circulator pump.
We then powered up the system while HayZee pointed out that the main
double breakers are of 30A rating running to the water heater panel box.

I worked on a few other things during the day and went out
and played 18 holes of golf at my local course.
When I got home at dark, I went downstairs to check the pipes for heat.
We have heat !!! Plenty of it!!

There's only one little problem though...the Dog Kennel is nice
and toasty warm! LOLOLOL!!!! LMAO!!!
The two pipes were hidden very well in the walls and I had thought
that these pipes were going out to the Sun Room slab manifold -
well they certainly are not...haha!
They are running inside the walls, and 9 ft underground below
the frost line out to the dog kennels.
Like I said...the dog kennel's floor is toasty warm and comfy.

Next move...I shut down and swap lines from the kennel to the Sun Room....LOL

I want to thank you Paul and HayZee for helping me out with this.
You guys are awessome!!!

[Stayouttadabunker]

WOW!
As I disconnected the slab in/out lines from the old system to swap with water heater lines - the Bedroom slabs are full of iron rust!
The water was as brown as the website buttons here!
I had to power flush out roughly 40 gallons of rusty water before it got almost clear.
I think I emptied about eight 5-gallon pails of rusty water!
I wish I didn't run all that water through the hot water tank because some of the sediment surely must remain in the tank now...arghhh!!!

Can I add some sort of rust dissolve to help clear the slab lines of what is probably 25 years of iron water coating the insides of the pipe walls in the slab lines?

I don't want to blow up the water heater when I power up the elements!!!

[HayZee518]

use regular radiator flush chemical from autozone or advance auto. get the cheapest stuff you can find. run it back and forth until the return water is pretty clear.

[Stayouttadabunker]

I haven't figured out how to get the rust flush chemicals INTO the system.
Maybe I better see how they flush car radiators and try a kit.

The bedroom is nice and warm right now as I left the heater on all day.
I will shut down again and try adding rust remover.
There were no elements on.
Does that mean the stat turned them off?
I think it does because the bottom element is on when I turned up the stat to about 80 degrees.
I put a multimeter back on the top element - still "OFF",
But now the bottom element is "ON" !!!

Sounds like it's working correctly right?
I will fine tune this system later on by moving everything closer to the slabs so that way the water heater is not just heating up excessive lines.
I also want to install a new automatic air vent valve ( made by Vent-Rite) and give the old one a good cleaning and inspection.

[paul52446m]

» Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

I haven't figured out how to get the rust flush chemicals INTO the system.
Maybe I better see how they flush car radiators and try a kit.

The bedroom is nice and warm right now as I left the heater on all day.
I will shut down again and try adding rust remover.
There were no elements on.
Does that mean the stat turned them off?
I think it does because the bottom element is on when I turned up the stat to about 80 degrees.
I put a multimeter back on the top element - still "OFF",
But now the bottom element is "ON" !!!

Sounds like it's working correctly right?
I will fine tune this system later on by moving everything closer to the slabs so that way the water heater is not just heating up excessive lines.
I also want to install a new automatic air vent valve ( made by Vent-Rite) and give the old one a good cleaning and inspection.

For what its worth , shut off valve under pump , shut off return valve going into heater. Drain about 1 gal. of water from bottom of heater, unscrew temp gauge, use funnel and put cleaner in and fill up with water as much as you can so you don't get much air in system. Re install temp gauge and open valves. paul

[HayZee518]

another way is to get a submersible sump pump with a garden hose outlet fitting and hitch it up to one line. use some extra garden hose and hitch it up to the other line and train the other hose into a five gallon bucket. mix up your cleaner in the bucket and turn on the pump. it is self priming. it'll force the liquid mixture into your lines and will keep circulating it through the loop as long as it is running. good stuff into the pump, return back to the bucket etc. when you are sure the lines are clear, remove the pump and use a garden hose to flush the system. now clean out the bucket and use the rv anti-freeze and use the pump to fill the slab's loop. just keep adding the anti-freeze to the bucket until the return is anti-freeze and shut off the pump. plug the ends and hitch up your water heater to the lines. at this point you'll have very little to add to the system because the loop will already be filled with the glycol mix. the thermostat will need to be turned up because the bulb is sensing room air temperature and needs to be increased to similate the need for heat.

[Stayouttadabunker]

Whew!
If it takes anywhere what I took OUT last night, I'll be needing
about 40 gallons of antifreeze to get a 50/50 mixture ratio! lol
I'm going to Wallmart's and clear out their shelves...LOL
I'll update tomorrow on what happens...Thanks guys!

[Stayouttadabunker]

This stuff called Super Iron Out works really, really good!
You should have seen the rusty/brown color of the water come out of those slab lines.
I ran the sump pump for about five 5-gallon buckets worth through the system and got the last bit of water coming through pretty darn clear!
I stirred in 1/5th of "Iron Out" per bucket and the sump pump pushed the cleaning mixture right through the slab lines like nothing.
Next, I mixed 5 buckets of RV red Glycol and then sump-pumped the mixture into the lines.
The water from the slab was even slightly pinkish in color coming out at the other end but I'm pretty sure it will all mix up in time as it all has to come back into the hot water heater tank at some point.

I may add more Glycol as suggested by Paul (Thanks! ) via the Temp/Pressure gauge inlet later on.
I may need to replace the gauge anyways, the temperature wont give any reading higher than 60 degrees even though the outlet pipe feels hotter than that.

This morning, it was 44 degrees outside, the room was 75 degrees (too warm I think), and the circulation pump stat is set at 70.
I need to tape and insulate the pump stat sensor bulb to the water tank's inlet pipe right?
( Right now, it's just hanging from the water heater's panel box.
Or would it be better to use the existing room temperature stat wires instead?

Attached below is a picture of the "Super Iron Out" stuff.
Click on picture to enlarge if desired...>>>

[paul52446m]

This stuff called Super Iron Out works really, really good!
You should have seen the rusty/brown color of the water come out of those slab lines.
I ran the sump pump for about five 5-gallon buckets worth through the system and got the last bit of water coming through pretty darn clear!
I stirred in 1/5th of "Iron Out" per bucket and the sump pump pushed the cleaning mixture right through the slab lines like nothing.
Next, I mixed 5 buckets of RV red Glycol and then sump-pumped the mixture into the lines.
The water from the slab was even slightly pinkish in color coming out at the other end but I'm pretty sure it will all mix up in time as it all has to come back into the hot water heater tank at some point.

I may add more Glycol as suggested by Paul (Thanks! ) via the Temp/Pressure gauge inlet later on.
I may need to replace the gauge anyways, the temperature wont give any reading higher than 60 degrees even though the outlet pipe feels hotter than that.

This morning, it was 44 degrees outside, the room was 75 degrees (too warm I think), and the circulation pump stat is set at 70.
I need to tape and insulate the pump stat sensor bulb to the water tank's inlet pipe right?
( Right now, it's just hanging from the water heater's panel box.
Or would it be better to use the existing room temperature stat wires instead?

Attached below is a picture of the "Super Iron Out" stuff.
Click on picture to enlarge if desired...>>>

I still don't under stand what you are doing with you in-floor heating. I think i asked once if you was just trying to heat the floor or are you trying to heat the room by heating the floor?
If you were trying ti just heat floor to 71 degrees and not heat the room. With the stat on the return pipe of the heater set at 71 degrees and the elements set at 110, when you have a call for heat you are putting 110 degree water to the slab, and by the time the return stat get down to 71 degrees , you have over heated the slab
If you are trying to heat the room by heating the slab, then the stat in the room should be turning the pump on and off Heating the room. To have faster recovery and enough water temp to heat in cold weather they use a 3 way valve, set heater temp up to 160 or higher. when room stat turn on pump to run hot water to slap, the thermostatic 3 way valve let some return water mix
with 160 degree to maintain 140 degrees to the slab to heat the room.
Where i live this is the only way to get enough temp in the slab to heat the room. In a system like this when we are using a boiler with 180 degree temp,is where we can use a out door stat that modulates the water temp up and down. Paul

[HayZee518]

Paul there is no stat in the room! there are three stats to adjust. upper element really doesn't do anything, lower element does the water temp of the tank, the slab stat turns on and off the whole system

[paul52446m]

Paul there is no stat in the room! there are three stats to adjust. upper element really doesn't do anything, lower element does the water temp of the tank, the slab stat turns on and off the whole system

I was just trying to tell him how it is usually done and to ask what he is trying to do. If he is trying to heat the room from the slab, then it will never work good the way it is controlled now. The heat loss of the room is the walls windows and so on so. The heat loss changes with the temp out side so the stat has to read the air temp in the room to work right. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

Good questions guys! Thanks!
I'm trying to heat the slab ENOUGH to bring the room temperature up to around 70 degrees.
You cannot heat a floor to 71 degrees and NOT heat the room -
unless you insulate the slab from the room.
That, I think, would be very counter-productive.

At the moment, I am succeeding in heating the room to around 74 degrees - but at what cost?
I really need to turn something down. haha!
Whatever that takes and as efficiently as possible.
Maybe there's better ways to accomplish this as you're saying Paul?

What's the best way to do that because right now the circulation pump
is NOT turning off although the elements turn off now and then.
Should the circulation pump run continuously like this?
It won't last long if the water is continuously circulating and never allowing the water in the tank to heat up enough to shut off?
The circulation pump is hot as heck right now and I'm fearing that it'll die.
It's presently wired as on at all times at 115VAC with now way to turn off unless
I hit the "new" Master switch on the water heater panel box.
Maybe I need to move the present single sensor bulb somewhere else
but it still won't turn off the pump?

Also, like HayZee is saying - only the bottom element on the heater seems to be the workhorse
as I haven't caught the top element in the act of being "ON" yet.
HayZee has the present hot water heater panel box setup.
I've attached it below.
I think I need to utilize a room temperature stat to control the circulation pump?
What do you guys think?
I would like to control the room temperature from up here - not in the basement.

[paul52446m]

Good questions guys! Thanks!
I'm trying to heat the slab ENOUGH to bring the room temperature up to around 70 degrees.
You cannot heat a floor to 71 degrees and NOT heat the room unless you insulate the slab from the room.
That, I think, would be very counter-productive.

At the moment, I am succeeding in heating the room to around 74 degrees - but at what cost?
I really need to turn something down. haha!
Whatever that takes and as efficiently as possible.
Maybe there's better ways to accomplish this as you're saying Paul?

What's the best way to do that because right now the circulation pump is NOT turning off although the elements turn off now and then.
Should the circulation pump run continuously like this?
It won't last long if the water is continuously circulating and never allowing the water in the tank to heat up enough to shut off?
The circulation pump is hot as heck right now and I'm fearing that it'll die. Maybe I need to move the present single sensor bulb somewhere else?

Also, like HayZee is saying - only the bottom element on the heater seems to be the workhorse as I haven't caught the top element in the act of being "ON" yet.
HayZee has the present hot water heater panel box setup.
I've attached it below.
I think I need to utilize a room temperature stat to control the circulation pump?
What do you guys think?
I would like to control the room temperature from up here - not in the basement.

I think you are getting it. You need to wire the water heater like you would any other water heater, to maintain temp in the heater. now depending on your heat loss, the amount of loops in the slab and how cold it gets out side, will determine what temp you will have to run the water heater.
Do away with slab stat.
New stat in room will make a relay to start the pump. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

I think you are getting it. You need to wire the water heater like you would any other water heater, to maintain temp in the heater. now depending on your heat loss, the amount of loops in the slab and how cold it gets out side, will determine what temp you will have to run the water heater.
Do away with slab stat.
New stat in room will make a relay to start the pump. Paul

The "slab" stat near the water heater is just a sensor bulb taped to
the water heater heaters' inlet pipe and set at 70 degrees.
It is actually turning off the heater whenever inlet water comes back at that temperature.
As you can see from the panel box drawing - my pump will not turn off
no matter what temperature anything is!
Should I use this relay in the water heater panel box - to turn it off?
That would mean I would need a 115VAC room thermostat right?
Or does the room thermostat have it's own relay built in?

I thought room thermostats use 24VAC with a transformer?
There's already one room thermostat upstairs going to the water heater room.
But it's not hooked up to this system at the moment.