Carrier or American Standard?

[outofmoney]

Between the two manufacturers, which one would have the better quality in the two products,2 Stage VS or 2 Stage, in your humble opinion? Also is there any real advantage in having a 80% 2 Stage variable speed gas furnace over a 80% 2 Stage gas furnace and if so why? All thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks

[LazyPup]

I know I am going to open a can of worms with this answer, but in truth, when comparing HVAC equipment, their is precious little differences between any of them. While some of the high end units do tend to use more complex and expensive control systems, one could make a sound argument that often simpler is better. Certainly less things to go wrong in the long run.

When you examine an Air Conditioner condensing unit they are all about the same. With some rare exception they all use either a Copeland or Tecumseh compressor, and often the top brand has the exact same compressor as the cheap contractor grade unit of the same tonnage.

Fan motors are also primarily interchangable.

Regardless of what shape it is made into, the coils are all pretty much the same, so what is left? The cabinet metal and the control components. All use fundamentally the same grade of sheet metal to make the cabinet and the determining factor there is often the quality of the paint job or whether the company logo is a cast piece of metal or a decal.

The primary electrical contactors, capacitors, and relays are all made by the same third party companies, so again they are pretty much the same.

Many of the top brands can maintain a higher standard because they only wholesale to factory authorized installers, therefore they can maintain a higher quality control on installation and service, whereas some of the low end units will sell direct to the public so there is little to no actual quality control on the installation, which explains why they often have a poor service record.

When comparing gas burners there is a wide lattide in quality, depending upon whether the burners are stamped metal, cast iron or stainless steel, but those option are available from almost all manufacturers, so in order to compare quality you must compare units with equal quality components.

The true test of quality is without a doubt the quality of the installation. Do they have technical school trained installers or helpers learning on your job? Do they take the time to do a heat loss study to determine what you actually need, or are they guessing at your expense? Are they installing ductwork properly planned and laid out to meet the needs of your structure or just using off the shelf pieces from a big box store and getting it close?

Without a doubt the warranty and follow up service is a prime consideration. Is the warranty, both parts and labor carried by your installer, or will you be stuck trying to locate a service company that is willing to try to chase manufacturers warranty monies?

For my own home, i would not hesitate to use contractor grade equipment with full confidence, but then, i know that it will be installed correctly and all the prescribed preventative maintenance performed on a timely manner.

[outofmoney]

Thank you for your professional and I do mean professional knowledge. For me you put it all together now. Installation, installation, and service seem to be the most important issues when making this decision. I finally understand, so I never have to ask that question again. You have restored my faith in HVAC contractors. I now know where to really look for the quality for the dollar I will spend. What was once six is now three.
Thank You

[imeduc]

Be sure and get 3 bids for this job. I like to say what ever the guy sells that has been right there for a long long time is what to get. he knows how it works and he will have parts for it if something goes wrong.

ED

My mistakes dont define me they inform me.

[LazyPup]

I shall never forget the opening lecture in my AC servicing class in tech school. The instructor began by say "I intend to teach you 3 ways of servicing HVAC equipment, first the absolute technically correct method of doing the job, second the industry acceptable short cuts to still perform a top quality job and finally, the common methods used by the jack leg fly by nighters."
I jumped up and asked "why would you teach the scab methods?" To which he replied "When you leave here you may use that information for one of two purposes, I would hope that understanding their tricks will help you undo their screw ups and get the system running correctly. On the other hand, if you go out an use those techniques you may make a lot of money for the first season, but by next year you will be out of business and the rest of us will make a good pay chech undoing your screwups."

HVAC is a very competitive business, and given there is very little actual quality differences in the equipment then quality installation and service becomes critical if one intends to stay in business. As Iemduc pointed out, get 3 bids and go with what the installers recommend. Believe me when I tell you that his business hinges upon his reputation and he is just as concerned about supplying you a quality system as you are, perhaps even more, for where a homeowner may want to cut cost, any installer who intends to stay in business simply cannot afford to stake his reputation on junk parts.

Word of mouth is everything in this business. One dissatisfied customer can verbally undo all the add campaigns an installer could afford to run, we simply cant take that risk.

[Poppasmurf]

Lazypup, methinks you have done a dis-service when you oversimplify and say "all systems are the same" and simpler is better". You are selling short the great energy savings and lower sound levels available with the new two stage residential compressors and variable speed condensing fans. This is not new technology, it's been around a while in the commercial field in one form or another. I think comparing reciprocating compressors to scrolls isn't justified.
If simple is better; melt ice, the original air conditioner.

[LazyPup]

If you will note,,my reference to simpler is better was to the control system. While some of the high end units offer intergrated circuit chips with onboard diagnostics and intergrated timers, those options are not essential and come at a dear price.

You will also note that i stated when comparing systems it is important to compare systems with the same components. Obviously a high end two stage compressor would be preferred to a single stage schroll compressor, but again, those options can be had from any manufacturer.

Is this new technology? No, as you pointed out, these technologies have been used for many years in the commercial line.

In my last home i had one condensing unit which i custom built with three one ton compressors using pressuretrols and unloader technology. I then had 7 evaporators fitted with expansion valves and line voltage t/stats on the fans zoned throughout the structure.

I am currently designing my own retirement home which will have a geothermal loop with three compressors, peak demand cold holding reservoirs, three water evaporators and a combination of underfloor hydronic loop radiant heating and hydronic air handlers (air handlers are controlled by line voltage t/stats, humidistats and aquastats) for dehumidification, humidification, quick recovery and peak high demand.

Air handlers are also equipped with HEPA filters and UV sanitizers.

The system will also have heat recovery for hot water and heating the pool. (The first time i saw refrigeration heat recovery to heat a swimming pool as at the Quality Inn and Conference Center in Chicopee Massachusetts. They had 5 walk in coolers and freezers and the water condenser discharge water was fed to a heat exchange to heat an olympic size pool. That was the only heat source to the pool and it kept the water above 55degF in mid winter when ambient temps were zero or below. That system was designed by a German POW interned at Westover AFB during WW II.)

The complete system will use off the shelf components that have been in production for perhaps 30 years or more. In fact, the system I am currently designing is only slightly modified from a similar system that I helped install in a "Good Sense" experimantal home sponsored by the local electrical utility company in Corpus Christi, Tex. in 1983.

The only digiatal controls involved are the "delay on make" relays on the compressors to prevent short cycling. The overall control is so simple basically a first semester apprentice could disgnose it.

[imeduc]

With lazypup here keep it simple. Have ran in to things that I cant see how they work , but they do. Went to a home one tine to do some duct work for them. looked around and they had a AC coil on the furnace. looked down on the floor there was a compressor and a receiver on a base. looked around for the copper lines and they went out side. I went out to look and on the side of the home was a copper coil set up about like on the back of lots of fridge is all no fan for the condenser coil. It worked real good they said.
Had another one. we did a lot of work for a guy had a drivein on the lake . you came by boat to it. Came winter and he closed down . Call up and asked if we could work on his soda and beer box . the old guy that put it in was not around. Got there and look at the box ask what he needed. Said he has to pull the condenser coil in the winter and clean it. WHAT WHAT. The coil just hung under the dock in the water. Pumped it down it had valves on the coil and the lines going to it with unions ans pulled it out.
Have put the condenser coil out in the lake for a heat pump for a home worked real good. Down here in Fl I have put a hot water recovery unit on my AC here I can turn off the water heater for about 8 months and have free hot water at about 140o. 3 in the home and never ran out. Or like pulled the AC out of an old truck we had put it in my sail boat and made it work as my fridge

ED

My mistakes dont define me they inform me.

[LazyPup]

While i was attending AC tech school in Corpus Christie, tex one of the guys in the class had a large single lid chest type crossover toolbox on his pickup.

We lined the interior of that box, bottom,sides and lid with a 2" layer of styrofoam insulation, then a second layer of 2" foam board with slots cut out to hold about 100 blue ice jell packs in the walls, and a formed coil of 3/4" copper in the bottom set into the insulation. The inner wall was then lined with sheet fiberglass and the corners all sealed with a marine fiberglass repair material, glass cloth & resin.

On one end of the copper coil we attached an expansion valve.

The unit was then connected to a second automotive AC compressor belt driven off the motor.

A thermostat in the box controlled the AC compressor clutch.

When it was done he could freeze the compartment when running down the road, and the jell packs helped maintain the cold when parked.

No one knew what the purpose of this was until about 8 months later we saw an article in the paper that he and another guy were going out into the country at night, rustling a cow, which they quickly quartered with a chain saw and tossed the meat into the box, which they were later selling to friends and neighbors.

[outofmoney]

Are you guys having fun? It sure sounds like it. Thanks for the info, but you lost me after you said "keep it simple".

[imeduc]

What you should say is K I S S


ED

My mistakes dont define me they inform me.