Private Water - Filtration System

[Max]

Hi Folks,

Yesterday we had a problem with our water. We're on private well water and after watering the lawn for a couple of hours the water ceased. In the house the water flow from the faucets sputtered then ceased also. I went to the basement and when I was looking at the pressure tank I could hear the pressure switch clicking every now and again but nothing happened. Eventually after about 5mins, and having done nothing, the switch clicked and the pressure tank seemed to spring into life. After that the water came out yellow / orange. I called the service guys out to take a look and they replaced a sediment filter which was completely saturated in ferric iron and now the water is running clear again. I asked them to provide me with a written quote for all the work that THEY would recommend that I have done. Basically they suggest that the whole system is replaced. By that I _just_ mean the system INSIDE the house. This would mean a new pressure tank but since it's 14 years old it's overdue anyway. They also recommended a new filtration system / softener since the current one doesn't really work. The filtration system is the really expensive part of the quote and this brings me to my question. Should I reaplce the filtration system or is it possible to service the unit? The new filtration system accounts for about 60% of the quoted cost but before I commit to anything I want to learn my options. I kinda like the idea of replacing everything as it's old now but I don't just want to throw money away. Does anyone have experience with this type of thing? The closest experience I have to this is my aquarium filter. I know I can service that, I don't replace the whole thing when it gets dirty but maybe the house version is different.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers, Max

[mrcaptainbob]

I'm not a proffesional plumber, but I have had almost thirty years living with a well and softener for experience. I changed out the whole sytem over that period of time for various and sundry reasons. Here's my opinion, along with questions...Is the air tank a bladder type? If not, replace it. If it is, check that it's holding air. Do this by shutting off the electricity to the pump and turning all the water on to let the 'water'pressure zero itself out. There's a little valve stem somewhere on the tank top. Check that with a tire gauge for the pressure. No air may mean a new bladder. Replace the tank and bladder. If it has air, we go to the next step...the filters. If you have sediment filters, start replacing them more often. I installed two cartridges between the pump and softener. The first was 30 micron, the second was usually 5 or 10. They had to be changed about every two or three months. Yours may differ. 3RD...are you keepoing the brine tank filled? Also, verify the timing on the recharge meter. First to make sure it's running, and also to verify the right 'time-of-day', as well as the time that it should cylce itself. Let us know what you find out. There should be no expense except for new filters, from what you have so far described. Hope it comes out cheap for you...

[Max]

Your 3rd question raises an interesting and important point....the brine tank NEVER fills up. For some reason it never gets any water and that's what led the tech to say that the filtration system is likely all blocked up. We have a single sediment filter but it's been positioned between the softener and the house i.e. there is no filter between the pump and the softener. The tech also suggested that this was incorrect and they would change that over too. Anyway, we checked that filter out and it was overloadded with ferric iron which means I can only imagine what state the softener is in! Since the softener does appear to send water to the brine tank and given the state of the sediment filter I think the softener needs to be overhauled or replaced. I'm thinking that an overhaul / service would be the cheaper alternative but cheap is not always the best option.

I can't tell you too much about the pump other than it's a Well X Troll WX-203.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Hube]

The first item on the list should be to have a Lab do a check on the "contents" of your well water. This analysis will tell you what your water requires in the form of a Filter, Iron filter, and bacteria content, if any. then go from there. Good luck Hube

[Max]

We had our well water tested last year during the inspection (before we bought) and everything came back OK. The tests that the guys did yesterday show us that the pH is 7 unfiltered and 7.5 filtered. The hardness is 3gpg both before and after the filter. Lastly, the iron countent is 5 before the filter and 0.5 afterwards. So obviously the water is not being softened but then again 3gpg is not high so its not something to worry about. What concerns me a little is that we have this system in the basement that seems to do very little other than filter out the ferric iron (which is a good thing). I don't know what other people have in their houses re: water treatment and I don't know what we need either since water quality can vary over time. If we didn't have a filtration system in place then I wouldn't be concerned at all but I am slightly concerned that we DO have one and it doesn't work. Does that make sense? If we have the system in place, I would like it to work. I think we need a new well pump given the water pressure problems that we have seen. I also think that the reason our water flow stopped completely is not due toour well running dry because it was fine after about 5mins, I think that what happened was that the pressure tank was depleted of water and the switch is perhaps malfunctioning so it wasn't recharging from the well. That's just my theory though. Does it make sense that your well doesn't deliver for 5mins and then normal water flow is restored? I would think it would take longer for a well to recoup it's water resources....longer than 5mins anyway. Anyway, I digress. $1375 seems like a lot of money to replace a water filtration system (and that's just for the unit, not the labour or pressure tank), IF we don't need it. I am going to call the guys who installed it originally (their label is on the brine tank) and get a second opinion.

Thanks, Max

[Hube]

It could be your pump is "overdrawing" the water in the well. How much flow does your well produce in gpm? Also, how many gallons will your pump put out out in a minute? What size in gallons is your pressure tank? What is your on/off pump settings? Check the math, it could very well be your problem. But I would suspect that the main problem is due to a FAULTY pressure switch. Hube

[Max]

I don't know what the flow rates are for the well or the pump, I guess I would have to meaure them. The pressure tank is 32 gallons. On / Off setting are, according to the tech yesterday 40/60. I don't know if there is somewhere I can check this. I suppose I could run the water and then watch the pressure gauge on the tank. Sorry for the lack of detailed information, I didn't even know what a pressure tank was until yesterday. I'm naturally a very skeptical person and I always assume that people are out to rip me off so when I get a quote to replace the whole system I take a step back and think. That said, from what I have read recently pressure tanks certainly have a lifetime and I think ours is a good age at 14. If I get a chance I will measure the flow rates.

[mrcaptainbob]

You asked about the brine tank being filled. My fault. I was not clear in what I said. I meant to say the brine tank filled with salt. Either rock or the pellets. I prefer the pellets with the 'iron-out' additive. Morton is what I usually get. As for the level of water in that brine tank, it should be about six inches from the bottom of the tank. Sure would be great if you had a book on that system. It could very well be the pump is trying to draw more than what the well can supply. Since you had the lawn sprinklers on for a lengthy period, you may have exhausted the well's ability to provide. You could try a test....run those sprinklers again for about the same amount of time and see if it happens again. With that and a few flushes, you may be able to prove that that's what's happeneing. If so, then you'll know.

[Max]

Thanks Capt. I had another guy out today. Yesterday was the guy from the company that drilled the well, installed the pump and pressure tank. Today a guy from the company that installed the filtration system / softener. Yesterday I was given a quote for $2600 to replace the pressure tank and softener. Today the guy just cleaned my valve, performed a manual regeneration to make sure it worked and gave me some iron our pro. I have set the softener up for daily regeneration and I will continue that for 1 week. For the next 3-4 days I will be adding iron out since the softener has basically been running for a year without any regeneration at all. The guy today was confident that the softener could be restored but he also made no guarantees. We have our fingers crossed.

Re: the water "running out", the same thing happened tonight for about 1 minute, all pressure was gone. By the time I got into the basement and checked the pressure tank it said 50psi and when I got back out again the hose pipe worked as normal. After yesterday's visit and sediment filter change our water started running clear again but then after this evening's pressure loss we are back to having discoloured water. I checked the filter and even though it's new it is definitely orange (but not clogged). I'm thinking that the problem isn't with the well supply but the ability for the pressure tank to maintain pressure and deliver water BUT I don't even know if that is a feasible solution? We are going to go ahead and get a new pressure tank because it's old and it seems that it's just not performing. We are going to wait on the softener and see if the above treatment does the job.

Cheers, Max

[mrcaptainbob]

Whoa! I wouldn't spring for a new pressure tank yet! There may be other reasons for your problem! The orange color stuff you're getting could easily be built up coatings inside the pipes breaking loose after the loss of water. The leading 'head' of new water rushing through the system may be breaking away accumulation that wouldn't be affected by regular usage. Do you know the history of the sytem? How old and deep is the well? How old is the pump? What was the 'quality' of that pump? It could be that the pump is going bad. It could also be that there's a leak in the pipes that may be in the well. Let's start here...Make sure all taps are off in the house. Then run some item to bring the pressure down so as to activate the pump. Once activated, shut off the 'item' and let the pump bring the system to pressure untill it shuts itself off. Now...keep an eye on that dial. Watch for any change in pressure. This will tell you if there's a leak somewhere in the sytem. If after five or ten minutes, there's no pressure change, then that's a good thing. Doesn't mean, however, that we're home free yet. Do the installers have info as to what the material is connecting the pump to the pitless adapter? Sometimes they're a nylon or pvc one piece tube, sometimes they're iron water pipe. I'll be putting money that yours are the iron water pipes. That's okay, too. They can be easily replaced. I'm becoming suspicious of that filter turning orange. What's it's location? First there's the well, then the line to the house, then comes....filter? softener? pressuretank? This will help in diagnosing. If that filter is the fist point of entry (as it should be), then the orange 'stuff' is definately coming from something in the well. It can also be the pump rusting itself apart and not activating correctly all the time. (Much like a car starter motor!) Untill one day....
Just some side info...I purchased the largest pressure tank HD had at $350.00. Also purchased new resin for the softener at $150.00. THe old was about 20 years old and had a rough life. Rebuild kit for the regeneration unit was around $45.00. Throw in some bucks for labor. I have no idea what that would be, I did it myself. I'm wondering how close that all gets to the 2600 beans quoted. Oh yeah, I added in two sets of prefilters before the softener and pressure tank.

[Max]

I don't know the history of the system unfortunately but I can tell you about the last 15months. Neither my wife or I knew anything about private well water and we just used it as is. I can tell you that since the brine tank never ever sucked in any water that the softener had not been regenerated in at LEAST those 15 months. It's fixed now by the way, a serviceman came around from the company that installed it and he cleaned out the valves, etc. Anyway, I think I covered that above. I need to call the company that did the well and pump to get the history for that (if they still have it). I also know that the pressure tank was installed in 1990.

Now to the other questions.

I sat and watched the pressure gauge the other night while I had the kitchen faucet on. The gauge dropped steadily to 36 then it progressed back up to 56. When you sit and watch it when nothing is running the needle doesn't move.

The sediment filter is placed AFTER the softener but I am thinking of putting in another before the softener too. When speaking to both service guys they gave me arguments to support their cases and they also suggested different locations. I like your idea of having two filters. I think you already get the idea but I want to draw the system anyway

WELL ---> PUMP ---> PRESSURE TANK ---> SOFTENER ---> FILTER ---> HOUSE

Let me break down the quote that I got....OK, it's not on my desk so I will use best guess numbers:
$1375 - softener
$377 - pressure tank
$44 - bracket (to mount filter on wall - I think it's unnecessary and don't want it anyway)
$275 - misc. materials (copper piping, etc. seems a bit high)
$420 - labour (2 guys, 4 hours)

That comes to about 2500. I'm maybe missing something but that's close enough.

You gave me some additional information above, how difficult a task is replacing the pressure tank if I was to do it myself? Obviously you have no idea of my skill level and neither do I since I haven't done this type of thing before but I consider myself to be handy with the toolkit and I've done a little plumbing before too, mostly just faucet and sink installation, that type of stuff. If I was convinced that the job is not TOO difficult then I would do it myself. If there is a risk of explosions, floods, injury, death, etc. then I would leave to the professionals.

Lastly, some info on the orange stuff. The second serviceman that came around thought that it could be rust that came from the pressure tank. We really haven't determined what caused the water pressure to completely disappear in the first place and I think that that piece of information is key.

What we do know is that whatever the problem it has to be fixed quickly as this morning my shower was barely a trickle until the pressure was restored inside the tank. I don't want to throw good money after bad so I don't want to replace the full system (inside the house) only to have the same problem. Is there a test that can point to the point of failure? I performed the test you listed and we seem to be OK in that regard but I'm not sure exactly what it proves.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer.

[Max]

OK, I have more information now.

1. I am quietly confident that the pump is OK. We have a 32g Well X tank and it took about 1min to refill. I didn't have a watch to time it with but that's what it felt like. The needle climbed at a good rate anyway and if I have this correct, that means good pressure from the pump?

2. I ran the test you suggested again and after the tank reached 56psi I noted that after 22mins it seemed to have gone down by a tiny amount. When I left it the first time I saw that the needle was almost completely on the 56psi marker. When I checked back there was a sliver of white visible between the marker and the needle. We didn't use any water in the interim time so it's not that. As long as nobody goes to the toilet or anything like that in the next 30mins, I will check the level again. I know one of our toilets constantly trickles but I turned off the supply to it earlier today. Yeah, everything water related is going wrong today.
3. I haven't checked this myself but my wife mentioned that the water looks crappy when the pressure is high and then starts to run clearer as it loses pressure. I'm kinda thinking a couple of things here. Let's say that the softener IS clogged with crap. When the pressure is high that crap is being blasted through the system, past the filter and out of our faucet. As the pressure decreases less of the crap is dislodged but flow through the softener reduces exponentially and thus we see a greater reduction in pressure at the faucet than we used to.

I have a final test to try. When we are seeing poor pressure at the faucet I will close it and then open one of the faucets by the pressure tank, one that doesn't go through the softener. If I see high pressure there and low pressure AFTER the softener then I can say that the pressure loss is down to the softener...............I think.

[Hube]

Max; First of all, your 32 gallon pressure tank holds only approx 8 gallons in actual water capacity.Most Bladder type tanks on the market only have a true capacity of approx 25 % of their listed capacity.(very misleading,eh?) Your pump is more than likely a 8 gallon a minute pump and that is why it can be filled in about 1 minute. This is normal. When your pump shuts off at 56 and then drops very slightly is normal. If it drpped 4 or more ,then it would suggest a leak in the line or check-valve. But since yours only drops a pound or so, this is a normal reaction to the pressure gauge. It would be best to place a whole house filter (5 micron approx $30 for the whole filter including the housing.) right after the pressure tank (before the softener) Under normal circumstances, this all the filtering that should ever be required. Why dont you by-pass the softener and see how everything operates?. I believe your softener is the culprit, and it would be best to also "blow out your lines and get rid of any crud, etc. Also, make sure that all ,if any, Areators on the faucets are removed and cleaned. Let us know how you make out. If you have any other questions on this, just post them...Hube

[Max]

Thanks guys. I have more information now and it all continues to point to my softener.

Time for pressure tank to fill i.e. 36psi -> 56psi ==> 1 minute 7seconds
Time for pressure tank to empty:
with softener inline ==> 8minutes 3seconds (water starts out orange then clears up).
softener bypassed =====> 5minutes 39seconds (water is tinged but not as bad as with softener inline at high pressure)

My wife was also measuring and we found that when we bypassed the softener we could fill 6 bowls. When we reconnected the softener we could only fill 4 7/8 bowls in the same time period i.e. 5minutes 39seconds.

Conclusion : by including the softener in the loop we lose pressure and I think that makes sense. However, when the pressure inside the pressure tank decreases the flow through the softener descreases exponentially. Also, with water flowing through the softener under higher pressure we actually introduce MORE sediment into the system. I will need to check the sediment filter but I am going to guess that even though it is less than 1 week old it is already saturated. I bought 2 more today so will swap it out if that is the case.

I don't know if the softener is salvagable and just needs some time to clean itself out after at least 15months of not regenerating..........or maybe it's just buggered and we need to get a new one. We were thinking that if we need to replace the softener we should replace the 14yr old pressure tank at the same time since it WILL need replacing at some time and it would be cheaper to get it all done at once.

For the time being we are going to use the water system without the softener since it seems to introduce more problems than it solves but, just to be safe, I got a water test kit and I am going to at least make sure it's potable before making that decision.

Thanks for all you help guys. I think I could have save 200 bucks by asking on here 1st rather than having two different service engineers coming out but at least I know how my water works now.

[mrcaptainbob]

Well, it does sound like the pump is okay, then! And that's a GOOD thing! The bladder tank change? Piece of cake. If you can hold two wrenches, you can change that tank. If it were mine to do...I'd get the big one fom HD or Menard's .... And Hube is right about that whole house filter, except I would opt for it to be before the pressure tank as well, just to help keep the silt out of it. Not familiar with most softeners, but mine was easy. YI think you can change out the resin bed yourself. Let the pressure draw down from the system and then turn on the bypass and shut off the softener in and outs. Repressure your system. Loosen the pipes from the softener and roll it out from under them. The top of the softener unscrews. It may be difficult, but it should come off. You'll find a stem from the bottom of that valve assembly running through the resin to the bottom of the tank. Get a few 5 gallon buckets ready. This thing's heavy with water and the resin. Would be best if you could cart it outside for this. SLOWLY tip it over and SLOWLY drain the water. When you start getting the resin beads (They'll look like copper silt) then pour them into your buckets. At the bottom you'll find what appears to be small stones, like pea gravel. That keeps the screen at the end of that tube from getting packed with the resin beads. Once you have it all nice and clear, rinse it all out with the garden hose.
Oh yeah....did I mention? You should've already had your new resin beads delivered! Jeezzz...what were you thinking? Well, you could still order them from that guy you had come out to fix that valve assembly. Maybe check around for a good price. Also, be careful how you dispose of the old resin, as it's usually contaminated with radon and is considered hazardous waste. For installation...set the tube and it's bottom screen into the unit. Plug or tape over the open end. Put those peas sized stones back in. Here's the hard part....pouring the new resin into that unit without getting it all over. You can do it, just set aside some time for all this. Making sure all along that the tube is relatively centered. Once you get it filled up, (the tank should be no more than 3/4 full of that resin) then attach the valve head assembly, making sure that the center tube (with plug removed!) is set into the bottom hole. Screw that sucker down, and your ready to reinstall.
You should also, at this point, decontaminate the whole house water system. But at first, you can flush and make sure that all is well leak and pressure wise.
Hube...do you agree with some of this? I'm not a pro, just have the experience of the sytem I had to deal with. Which is very similar to all of this....Thanks for your help to me, as well...