slow toilet flush

[wak]

I have a toilet that flushes somewhat slower then it used to. The first flush flushes, but if I make a second flush it will back up. I plunged it many mnay times and it does not clear way. I do not have a septic system, I have normal city sewer system.

Thanks in advance

[Phelps]

You could have tree roots in your main sewer line out in your yard before it dumps out into the city main out below the street. A first flush toilet that doesn't flush after the first flush is indicitive of water slowly draining out through tree roots. So when you flush it the first time there is place for the water to go. But on the 2nd flush and thereafter successive flushes, due to water back up in your main, the toilet won't flush right.

But usually if there are tree roots like this, the water then will try to back up in the basement through either the floor drain (if it works) or a laundry tub drain or out of the washing machine drain line, or whatever.

DO you have any drain line openings like what I mentioned in your basement so you would know or not if you have a water back up problem? Also, after successive flushes like this, do you see any water trying to seep out where the toilet bowl mets the floor? It generally will if the water is backed up and can't leak out anywhere down below.

If you have no water back up at all, you may have something in your toilet, and may have to just snake it with a toilet auger. These can be hit and miss depending what is caught up inside the trap to the toilet. IF there is something in there, it is adviseavble to first:

Put some bleach in the toilet bowl water and swish it around, and let it sit for a minute. Then shut off the valve that supplies water to the toilet. Then flush the toilet. Then plunge + sponge out all the water. Then toilet auger. By not having water in there, any bottle or object that floats can fall back inside the toilet bowl without being held up high in the trap inside the toilet. This "trick" has worked for me many times oveer the years after unsuccessful augering with the water in the toilet.

The metal scratches of the toilet auger snake will come out by themselves with either bleach or hydrocloric acid used to get lime off of toilet bowls. The "scratches' are not scratches because metal is softer than the china the toilet is made out of. The scratches are really *deposits* of the metal.

To test and be absolutely be certain the toilet is free and clear, simulate turds being flushed down the toilet by wadding up 2 or 3 wads of toilet paper to turd size, or like golf balls, that you wet under the bathroom sink and toss in and flush. If you can repeat this test 3 times in a row, without back up, you have no more obstruction.

Oh. And I have seen limed-up toilets behave this way also..although generally when they get bad enough, they don't flush right even on the first time. Santeen, a hydrocloric acid product found at least at MY plumbing store, if poured in the toilet bowl, with no water in the bowl, and sloshed around, and let sit, and slosh around about every 1/2 hour or so, will clear out the most caked on lime in about 4 -6 hours or less. You want it to soak a long time so it can dissolve lime that is in the jet hole that assists the flush, at the bottom of the bowl. Santeen costs about $6 a quart. Dump at least 1/2 of it in, and make sure the jet hole is covered completely.

To add: I forgot another trick that has worked for me in the case of small bottles and toys in toilets, and that is filling up a 5 gal. mud pail in the bathtub and as I flush and the water is near the bottom, I quickly dump in the water as fast and hard as I can to help jumble the object. I do this several times.

[wak]

wow, more complicated then I thought ill work down your check list with what i know om the order you did. I do have some facts and more questions for you.

1) tree roots: Is it possible something is hanging on tree roots. My point is this. A week ago the toilet worked perfect. Then one flush backed up, from then on its been flushing slow first flush, 2nd flush backs up.

2) No basement only have a crawl space. No water comming up between toilet and floor.

3)I bought a 25 foot snake from harbor freight this morning, I will give it a try. Is 25 feet long enough or do I need longer?

4) I live by myself, I have no kids, keep toilet lid closed all times I don't know how anything could have ever dropped in it. I'm not saying there isnt I'm just saying if someone dropped something it was me, which obviously I did not notice.

5) what is the purpose of the bleach? Is the chlorine to kill bacteria?

Okay, you gave me some good homework, i'll get on it. thanks!

[Phelps]

wow, more complicated then I thought ill work down your check list with what i know om the order you did. I do have some facts and more questions for you.

1) tree roots: Is it possible something is hanging on tree roots. My point is this. A week ago the toilet worked perfect. Then one flush backed up, from then on its been flushing slow first flush, 2nd flush backs up.

2) No basement only have a crawl space. No water comming up between toilet and floor.

3)I bought a 25 foot snake from harbor freight this morning, I will give it a try. Is 25 feet long enough or do I need longer?

4) I live by myself, I have no kids, keep toilet lid closed all times I don't know how anything could have ever dropped in it. I'm not saying there isnt I'm just saying if someone dropped something it was me, which obviously I did not notice.

5) what is the purpose of the bleach? Is the chlorine to kill bacteria?

Okay, you gave me some good homework, i'll get on it. thanks!

1. Tree roots out at their very ends become like strands of hair and enter any joint or crack in the drain line. There, the toilet paper snags and starts a back-up scenario.

2. Check your crawl space under the toilet and see if water is running out of the floor under the toilet. If it is?: Probably tree roots causing sewer line back-up. if it isn't: Probably something else, like something still stuck in the toilet. Do you know that tampons can dangle by their strings below the toilet and cause eratic flushes?

3. Regualr drain snakes do not work good for going through toilets and down the main drain. They are too thin and flexilbe and with the slightest obstruction they can start curling around into figure 8's, instead of going down the line any further. You really need a toilet auger; a more heavy duty snake on a rod, for this. Then if something is beyond it, you usually need Roto Rooter with their big, long snake with their cutting heads. Also, you problem might be out by your boulevard, if there are trees,nearby. How many feet out is that?

5. Just to sanitize.

[wak]

How many feet to the street, you ask? Well to the front street its 50 feet, only 1 tree in yard. To the back alley there are no trees it's over 100 feet. I don't know which way sewer goes out. I do know the water main is on my front street.

Can I rent something. was really hoping to fix this on my own.

I'll have to go under house and look for leaks.

[LazyPup]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I thought the post stated they had a water closet with a sluggish flush. Nowhere does it state that they are having problems with any other drains in the structure.

Now let us consider the facts.
A watercloset discharges 1.6gallons per flush and one gallon of water occupies 231 cubic inches of volume therefore the total volume of water discharged is 1.6 x 231cu.in = 369.6cu.in of water.

By code the line attached to the watercloset is either a 3" or 4" line.

Volume of a cylander is computed by multiplying the cross sectional area by the lenght therefore if we were to divide a known volume by the cross sectional area we could derive the total length of pipe required to contain that volume.

The formula for the cross sectional area is PI x Radius squared thus for a 3" pipe area equals:

A= 3.1416 x (1.5 x 1.5)
A= 3.1416 x 2.25
A= 7.06sq.in.

The total volume of water was 369.6cu.in therefore if we divide 369.6cu.in by 7.08sq.in we get 369.6/7.06= 52".

Allowing 12 linear inches per foot we can divide 52" by 12" and get 4.33ft. or simply 4'4".

If the first 4'4" of pipe from the watercloset can contain the entire volume discharged from that watercloset pray tell how could a tree root in the house sewer 40 or 50 feet away effect the flush without causing all the other drains in the house to back up, especially when we consider that a shower discharges 2.5gal/min and typically lasts 10 minutes for a total discharge of 25gal yet there is no mention of the shower backing up.

The post states that this toilet flushes "somewhat slower than it used too" therefore we must look for what conditions may have changed.

Let us first perform a simple test to see if the problem is in the water tank and flush system or if it is in the trapway and the drain.

Take an ordinary scrub bucket and fill it with about 1.5gallon of water, then quickly pour the water into the toilet bowl. Did the toilet complete a normal flush? Now pour about a quart of water into the bowl to restore the normal water level in the bowl and repeat the 1.5gal test. (During a normal flushing cycle the fill valve trap primer would be supplying the quart to restore the normal trap level.)

Try this two or three times to get an average to be sure. If the toilet consistantly flushes okay when we pour the water directly in the bowl then the problem is most likely in the tank or the tank to bowl waterway.

To check out the tank and waterway system first remove the tank lid and check the water level in the tank. You will see a manufacturers indexed "Water Level" either printed or embossed into the tank wall. With the new low volume waterclosets it is critically important that the water level in the tank be up to the indexed water level mark. If the water level is low adjust the fill valve to bring the water level up to the indexed mark.

Next locate the "Trap Primer Line" which is a small diameter plastic line about the diameter of a wooden lead pencil that runs from the water fill valve to the top of the standpipe in the middle of the tank. the output end of the trap primer should have a small plastic nozzle that is held in place by a metal springclip. Make sure that nozzle is centered over the standpipe opening so that all the water discharged from the trap primer will go down the standpipe. This is also critical, otherwise there will not be a sufficient volume of water standing in the trap when the watercloset is at rest. Also check the line carefully to make sure there are no kinks in the line that would restrict water flow and reduce the amount of water supplied to the trap.

Check the chain or strap that connects the flush handle to the flapper valve. Properly a chain should have about 1 to 2 links of slack when the flush handle is in the at rest position. If it has more slack than that, shorten the chain. This is critical because the flapper must be quickly lifted to the full upright position to effect a good flush.

Has the flapper valve been changed? If so, are you sure you have the correct flapper? Years ago we only had one universal flapper but with the advent of water saver toilets it became necessary to redesign the flappers, therefore flapper valves are now rated by the Gallon Per Flush and you must be sure to get the correct flapper for your toilet. (Fluidmaster now makes a universal flapper that has a rigid plastic frame and the rubber ball can be rotated to adjust the Gal/flush flow rate).

A few years ago there was a trend to convince people to put a brick in the tank to displace some of the water volume in an effort to save water. Make sure there is no foreign objects in the tank. Also check carefully to be sure there is no water sanitizer dispenser hanging on a tank wall where it might interfere with the normal function of the flush handle or water fill valve. Normally the right rear corner of the tank is fairly open so if you elect to install one of those bowl cleaner dispensers in your tank it should be placed in the right rear corner away from the working parts of the tank. At this point the tank has been checked out.

Look under the rim of the bowl and you will see a ring of small holes where the water enters the bowl during the flush cycle. Using a piece of stiff wire such as an old coat hanger, punch out all of those holes to make sure they are open.

If all the above checked out ok then we move on to the operational test.

Press the flush handle down and hold it in the down position for about two seconds then release the handle. Did the toilet flush correctly? (Note: some of the newer low flow toilets have a two stage flushing action. Quickly depressing the flush handle and releasing it will only effect a partial flush sufficient to handle liquid waste while depressing the handle and holding it in the down position for about two seconds will effect a full flush for solid wastes).

If the toilet is still flushing sluggishly the next step is to try to clear the trapway with a "Watercloset auger"

As a last resort you will need to lift the watercloset and physically examine the trapway from underneath to see if their is any foreign object caught in the trapway. If not, they you will need to snake the drain line with a power auger equipped with a cutter equal to the drain line diameter. (Typically a 3" cutter).

[wak]

I did all the tests you just layed out. I did change the flapper about a year ago, but this problem just started within the last coupple weeks. Regarding inside the tank, all parts are functioning as they should be.

I checked holes in bowl and all are open.

I did do the water bucket test and the first bucket flushes the bowl, and the second bucket backs up and would over flow the bowl if I were to continue a full pour.

Please explain water closet, I don't know what a water closet is.

What does this test now tell me?

Thanks.

[LazyPup]

What is a "Water closet"?

While the terms "Toilet", "commode" or "Crapper" have been accepted in common usage to define the tank and bowl assembly the proper name is "Water Closet" which then explains why the flat plate fitting on the end of the waste line to which the water closet is mounted is properly called a "Closet Flange". This also explains why the specialized J-hook shaped snake used to clean the water closet trap way is properly called a "Closet Auger".

If we were to trace the origin of the phrase it goes back to midievel days. They did not have plumbing as we know it in the old castles, but instead they had small closets throughout the structure inwhich they kept a chamber pot, and one would go in the closet to "Make Water" thus the chamber came to be known as the water closet.

Almost all Plumbing Code books, trade publications and training manuals use the proper term Water Closet therefore it has come to be common trade vernacular for Plumbers to refer to it as the Water Closet and when abbreviating it on a line drawing or a construction print we use the common abbreviation of "WC".

The proper definition of the word "Toilet" (Pronounced Twa'-let) means the act of dressing or preparing onself" therefore technically speaking the term toilet is referring to our actions while in the bathroom rather than defining a specific fixture.

While many people think of it as a vulgar phrase, in truth the word crapper is derived from the Surname of the man who invented the Tank and Bowl type water closets that we have today,,His name was John Crapper.

Properly a "Commode" is a small cabinet upon which you place a washbowl and water pitcher, or in modern terms it defines the cabinet that supports a bathroom lavatory bowl (Bathroom sink cabinet).

Well, that ought to be enough classroom exercise for the moment so let us get back to the task as hand, resolving why your water closet has a sluggish flush.

The bad news is that the symptoms would now indicate that you have a partial blockage in the waste line, however from the previous post we determined that 1.6gal of water occupies about 4.33' of 3" pipe and from your test with the bucket we have determined that it will accept the eqivalent of one flush but begins backing up almost immediately on the second flush. From this we can roughly estimate that the clog is perhaps 5 or 6' down the line.

The Good news is that you stated you already bought a 25' snake so you should be able to lift the watercloset and inserting your snake into the waste line you should be able to easily clear the line.

If you need detailed instructions on how to lift the water closet let me know and I will be glad to give you a step by step checklist.

[Phelps]

LazyPup,

Holy smokers! An epistle.

I am just going on actual bonafide experience. There were things said by the poster which all have variables to them.

1. We don't know what is going on under the crawl space. We don't know if water is leaking out.

2. Regarding tree roots way out in the yard you say can't possibly cause a back up on the second flush? Is that what the implication is? It can. If the roots were out 75 feet let's say, and the water was almost 100 % backed up, there could be a situation where the water is solid in the sewer pipe from 4 feet to 75 feet out. He gets the first flush, but then not a second flush. Then after waiting a while, the water slowly seeps down the sewer pipe 4 feet worth, let's say. Again, he flushes and gets that first flush.

Maybe this isn't the case, but one never knows.

3. Regarding the fact that other water does not back up: Who knows what is going on there. How do we not know that water is coming out of fittings somewheres under the crawl space just fast enough to let water leak out for draining, but not fast enough to cause the rapid discharge of the toilet?

I recently HAD such a scenario as this, in a rental, over a crawl space. We had tree roots downstream. The first flush worked. The second one did not. The kitchen sink drained because it came out a leak in a bathtub's drum trap cover in the crawl space. The tub was sanitary teed into the main sewer line. All the other drains, like the vanity and the tub all let the water leak out the drum trap cover.

...........................................

This is why we need to know what is going on under that crawl space. IF no water is coming out down there, then you would be right what you say...IF...by running other water fixtures for any sustained length of time, no water backed up and there was no water leaking out under the crawl space.

Regarding your disection of water pipes and volumes...you sound like me 25 years ago when I was in charge of a water system and I calculated the very stuff you did by cross section square inch size X length of pipe. I have a thick folder still, at home, on the various tests I did with finding out how water volumes changed by given distances of pipe and what happened to water volumes at distances far away from our wells and what happened to water volume at garden spigots at the house, and what it was with 50 feet of hose on it, and what it was with 100 feet of hose on it. I also did testing of water pressures at given points along our main line and discovered I could find hidden water leaks under ground, relatively accurately, by testing water pressure at houses near the leak site. Stuff like that.

[LazyPup]

Let us examine the original post and see if we can find these mysterious variables you speak of:

"I have a toilet that flushes somewhat slower then it used to. The first flush flushes, but if I make a second flush it will back up. I plunged it many mnay times and it does not clear way. I do not have a septic system, I have normal city sewer system."

The only variable that i note is the fact that the toilet formerly flushed correctly, but now it flushes SOMEWHAT SLOWER. The remaining information in the post simply points out the measures that WAK attepted before posting and he goes on to provide information on the type of system he has, which is very important to diagnosing the problem because it defines how the system is laid out.

Now, when a customer is paying a neigborhood handyman at or near minimum wage they may tolerate guesses based upon past experiences, but when they are paying the type of labor rates that Licensed Plumbers such as myself typically charge they have a right to expect near immediate results which can only come from a thorough knowledge of Drain, Waste and Vent Piping systems.

In this case, since the complaint is confined solely to the watercloset with no mention of any other drain lines backing up, operating sluggishly or even gurgling at the traps, i then concluded that the problem was most likely confined to the waste arm from the watercloset to the house main drain or vertical soil stack. I then computed the length of the line by discharge capacity and found that the problem is most likely within 5 to 10 feet from the watercloset location, which is well within the range of a typical watercloset waste arm or horizontal branch line.

Now we could make the argument that the main drain or house sewer line is backed up but if that were the case I wonder why the post would only mention a sluggish watercloset which is discharging 1.6gpf but there is no mention of drains backing up when they take a shower even though a shower would discharge approximately 25gal or 15.65 times as much water? Perhaps a sluggish flush is an annoyance but standing ankle deep in water in the shower is acceptable, i think not.

As you stated we could also make the argument that perhaps there is a leak under the house that would allow the other water to leak out but could not handle the rapid discharge from a toilet, except for one minor point. Once the water discharges from the water closet and enters the DWV sytem it moves solely by gravity flow therefore the velocity of flow in the drain line from a water closet is exactly the same as it is from a shower, lavatory bowl or kitchen sink.

[wak]

Before I continue with results of the leak test, I will tell you this thing worked perfect a week ago. It was literally night and day difference on one flush. I remember it as clear as if it were yesterday. I flushed it and it came up and over flowed. I waited until the next day to continue flushing and found out this 1 flush rule. I noticed I have to wait quite a bit to get in the second flush. Before this happened the first flush when down with almost a vacuum. Now the first flush is slower. So the velocity of the water is also slower when draining now. If at one time it was 4 feet per second, I would estimate it at 2 ft/sec now.

Now for the tests:

Okay, I went underneath my house and saw no leaks. All other drains are running perfectly. In fact before I posted here, I filled up two sinks and the tub and drained them and they drained fine. I then figured my problem is somewhere in the "water closet" . (Hows that for proper nomenclature?) So I gather what you gentlemen are telling me is I either have a root problem or a trap problem. It sounds like I can't simply run a snake through the bowl.

I presume I have to lift this water closet off the ground and snake it? If thats the case what is my next step?

Also on another question, if I had water leaking under neath then what does this mean?

On another question, can this problem go away by itself?

This is quite the education here. I learned how to repair my refridgerator and now toilet (I mean water closet) in the same week!

[LazyPup]

WE must remember that when there is no water running in a drain line the line is full of vent air. When a clog occurs once the standing water seeps by the solid particulates will normally dry in place making the clog that much worse so the likelyhood that the problem might correct itself is slim to none.

Because of the shape of the trapway in a watercloset you should never attempt to run a snake through the bowl because the cable will jam or it can cause severe damage to the bowl.

They make a special J-hook shaped auger called a "closet auger" for snaking out the watercloset trapway.

Although lifting a water closet can be a bit tedious the first time you do it, all in all, you will find the procedure is relatively simple.

Before you begin you should gather the necessary tools and supplies and have them handy.

1. A new Wax ring. (available at any hardware store for about $1)
2. A pair of channel lock pliers
3. A putty stiff knife
4. A Water closet plunger
5. A utility knife
6. A large plastic trash bag.
7. An old styrofoam coffee cup or the bottom half of a plastic soda bottle.
8. A rag or a medium size sponge.

I would suggest you also get a new set of "Closet Mount Bolts" They are very inexpensive and also available at all local hardware stores for about $2 to $3. When selecting closet mount bolts you will see that they are made in both Brass and chrome finish and in 1/4" and 5/16" diameter. Typically the 1/4" diameter is used in a residential application while the 5/16" it more commonly used in commercial applications however, both will fit equally well and from experience I can tell you that the 5/16" brass bolts do not corrode near as bad as the chrome finish might and are generally much easier to remove at a later time if the need should arise.

In a worst case scenario you may need a mini hacksaw to cut the old closet mount bolts out, but for the moment we will assume you won't run into that problem.

THE PROCEDURE:
1. Locate the water supply angle stop valve and turn the valve off.
2. Remove the tank lid and set it aside.
3. Flush the water closet and manually hold the flapper valve open to make sure as much water as possible will drain from the tank. Watch the fill valve carefully to make sure it is not refilling water. (Water refilling at this point would indictate the angle stop valve is not holding correctly, in which case you would need to turn the water off at a zone valve or turn the house Main water shutoff valve off temporarily)

There will still be about a 1/2" of water in the bottom of the tank which is below the top rim of the flush valve. You can hold the flapper up and scoop that water with the coffee cup and pour it in the flush valve hole under the flapper. It is not mandatory to get every bit of the water out, but the more you can get out is that much less you need to worry about potentially spilling when you move the bowl.

Now use the water closet plunger to force the water in the bowl into the drain line.

Check the base of the watercloset bowl where it meets the floor. It will probably have a bead of caulking sealing it to the floor. If so, use the utility knife to carefully cut the caulking but be careful not to cut the floor covering material. (This is especially critical if you have a sheet vinyl floor in the bathroom)

Next, locate the closet mount bolts on the base of the bowl. They will probably be covered with little plastic or ceramic caps that will easily snap off. (One on each side of the bowl at about the center when measured end to end). Remove the caps, then remove the nut and washer.

You may now disconnect the water supply line from the fill valve on the underside of the tank the left side.

Open up the large plastic bag and lay it on the floor near the bowl base so that when you lift the bowl you can set it down on the bag, then slip the bag up around the bowl before moving the bowl. The bag will then catch any residual water or remnants of the old wax ring that may fall off preventing any mess on the floor. ( I like to then set the watercloset down on its back in the bathtub so that any water that might leak out will go down the tub drain without any mess on the floor. This also places the watercloset out of your way and the tub wall will protect it from any damage while you clean the drain line.

Now locate the new wax ring and open the box, remove the new wax ring and set it aside. You can now use the putty knife to remove the remains of the old wax ring from the top of the closet flange and put the old wax in the box for disposal. Pay particular attention to the inside of the throat of the closet flange making sure their is not an old plastic wax ring guide horn stuck in the opening. Remove as much of the old wax as you can with the putty knife. There will still be a film of the old wax on the flange, this is not a problem.

You may now concentrate on snaking the drain. Ideally you should have a power snake that has a 3" cutter on the end of the cable, however you stated that you had purchase a 25ft snake. Sight unseen I am guessing that is just a simple 3/8" wire snake that looks like an really long screendoor spring. In this case you may be able to open the drain with that type of snake but normally those are only successfull on smaller diameter drain lines such as a sink or tub drain however I am guessing that the clog is fairly close to the drain opening and you may be successful with the smaller snake.

Here is a little tip that one of our readers shared with us recently. After you have snaked the drain place the end of the water supply line in the drain opening and carefully open the angle stop to supply water to the drain to flush out the material once its been loosened with the snake. Be careful here, if the water is still backing up in the drain line you will need to turn the valve off quickly.

In a worst case scenario if your snake will not clear the drain you can rent a powered auger with the proper 3" cutter at some local hardware stores, home centers and all tool rental companies for about $45 a day, and most have a 1/2 day rate which is considerably cheaper. (With the watercloset lifted and the drain accessible it will only take about 10 minutes once you have the machine)

Once you have the drain line opened up you can now reset the watercloset.

First check the underside of the bowl base for remnants of the old wax ring. Remove as much of the wax as you can with your putty knife.

Visually check the drain opening on the underside of the bowl to make sure their is not an old toothbrush, pill bottle or other obstruction caught in the trapway.

Set the new wax ring in place on the top of the closet flange and check the mount bolts to make sure they are lined up at the 9 o'oclock and 3 o'clock position when viewing the flange from directly in front. (If you bought new bolts remove the existing bolts and install the new ones).

Now lift the watercloset and carefully set it down in place using the mount bolts and bolt holes to align it as you lower it in place. When the bowl is in firm contact with the wax ring press down firmly on the bowl and rock it side to side slightly to compress the wax until the base of the bowl is resting in firm contact with the floor. (Absolutely do not attempt to pull it down by tightening the bolts as this can potentially crack the ceramic base of the bowl or damage the closer flange.)

Place one of the flat washers on the bolt then screw one of the nuts down finger tight. Repeat this step on the opposite side then tighten the bolts with your pliers. (It should only require about two turns past finger tight.)

Reconnect the water supply line and open the water supply valve. The tank should begin filling and when the tank is full and the fill valve shuts off you should be able to flush the watercloset in the normal manner.

We would normally run a bead of caulking around the base of the bowl at this time, but since this is your first experience as a DIY installation you may want to hold off a few days to make sure there is no water leaking from the wax ring before you install the caulking.

I am attaching an illustration I prepared to help you visualize how the watercloset is mounted.

http://www.homerepairforum.com/images/uploads/2006-3-1_plumbing_043_w550.jpg

[Phelps]

It's not my ambition in life to needlessly make enemies. I come here to try to help in many of the forums here and on other forums elsewhere. My advice often does indeed help people. Sometimes one can err. Sometimes not all the facts where given by the original poster making a request.

In this case we have now just learned that nothing is leaking in the crawl space, for example.

To think of every possible variable that can happen sometimes can often needlesly befuddle in advance of one garnering all the needed knowledge.

I speak from a lot of experience and from things I have actually been a witness of. Not jsut theory.I can't say for every problem that what I suggest WILL be it...but I consider that it could be possible based on the original information given.

With back and forth dialogue between poster and the person trying to help, more can be learned as one goes along.

We don't know, yet, for example, if the poster lives in a mobile home, let's say, with a trailer that has settled and whose drain pipe below the trailer is angling the wrong way. Something else I have experience in from being in the mobile home business for 20 years. One could second guess even THIS in advance and say, "Well, it couldn't do that (flush problem) because the gallons in the pipe would have held the wateer but...blah blah". But as I said...when one does not have ALL the pertinent information all up front, you'll just be taking guesses until all the facts come out.

I can't wait to see what the cause of the poster's problem is.

As I said in an earlier post, I actually saw a toilet behave this way from tampons dangling by their strings below the johhny ring. Why it flushed the first time, but not the second time was causing me to scratch my head. But I pulled the toilet and found the problem and removal corrected the problem.

The other very recent incident I spoke of did the same thing where it would flush the first time and not the second, or thereafter, unless one waited a good while...and it WAS caused by tree roots and all the other drains drained because of the leaking going on in the crawl space. Well, only now did we learn he has no leak under his crawl space.

[wak]

Sounds, like a plan Phelps. You are correct, without all the facts one canot make a proper diagnoses.

Give me a few days on this and I'll take this thing a part and see what the problem is.

thanks to all, Ill let you know what takes place.

[wak]

closet auger

I bought a closet auger today made by Riged Tools from Home Depot for about $30. it has a 3 foot snake on it. It's a nice tool I am glad I bought it even though I did not need it this time.

I augered it twice today and the 2nd flush still backs up. I know I need to remove the toilet, looks like a hassle job but I know it needs to be done.

Tomorrow I'm going to rental tool store to see what kind of pluming equipment I can rent. Would be nice to remove the toilet, inspect the trap and sewer then if need be go ahead and rent that cutting saw same size dia. as sewer pipe to run it in thru the sewer.