shower leaking

[Trudy]

My house is 50 yrs old. I have a shower stall only in the bed rm. The head leaks when water is turned off. I had the handles hot and cold replaced, as well as a new shower head about 3 months ago but the leak has started again. After charging me $275.00 the plumber said he might have to return and break out the tile to replace the entire thing inside the wall. Is it possible that the problem could be just something in the pipe that the water comes from at the top and breaking out the tile is not really required?

[LazyPup]

Whether or not you would need to tear the tile out to install a new mixer will depend on your architecture. If the mixer is in a partitioning wall in the bathroom that is tiled on both sides you will have no choice but to remove some tile to gain access. On the other hand, if the shower is against a wall to another room you may be able to open up the sheetrock in the adjoining room to gain access to the mixer from behind, and repairing sheetrock is much simpler than replacing tile. Having said that, I would have some reservation about replacing the mixer until I ruled out whether or not your present mixer can be rebuilt, unless of course that you would prefer a new mixer.

In your post you stated that the house is 50 years old and that you had the handles (in the plural) replaced. May we also assume that the shower mixer assembly is original to the house? If that is the case then you most likely have a brass mixer body with individual "Hot" & "Cold" faucetts that are the older stem and seat type valves. If this is the case you should be able to do a complete rebuild with a minimum of cost and effort as a DIY project.

In most cases if the internal "Bibb Washers" have been replaced and they failed in a short period of time it is a direct result of one of two problems;

1. A defective seat that is either grooved or has a rough edge that is chewing up the washers. If this is the case in most instances the seats are fairly easy to replace and they only cost about $1.50 each.
2. When the washers were replaced the stem was not backed out to the full open position before installing and the new washers were distorted as the stem was tightened. Here again, this is an easy DIY replacement and the parts cost will be about $.30 to $.50.

Before you begin you will need to round up the necessary tools:

10" or 12" channel lock pliers (common in a DIY tool box)
10" adjustable wrench (common in a DIY tool box)
A set of Plumbers Sockets -available at any hardware or home supply store. (As an example they are listed in the Home depot catalog for $6.59 for the set)
Combination Hex & Square seat wrench -available at any hardware-(As an example -Home Depot catalog price $2.98)

You will need to remove the stems and seats, then take them to your local hardware store to match the Bibb washers and seats. (Hint-ACE or True Value hardware stores carry a very good selection of rare faucett seats.)

Here is a step by step procedure that you can copy, paste & print to aid you through the project.

1. Unfortunately Tubs & showers are not required to have individual fixture shut off valves so you will need to locate Zone valves for the bathroom if you have them, otherwise you will need to locate your "Main Water Shutoff" valve and turn it off.

2.If this is a multi-story house you will need to drain both the hot and cold water lines at a point lower than the shower mixer to be sure the residual water in the system will not leak out when you pull the stems. If you have a basement laundry that is an excellant place to drain the system, otherwise a bathtub of lavatory bowl. (If your house is a one story on slab the water lines to the mixer will most likely be rising from below so you will not need to drain the system. You should expect a minimal amount of water loss which is the water standing in the riser pipe up to the shower head, but that will only be about a cup of water.)

3. Remove the faucett handles. Normally the faucett handles will have a snap in cap in the middle of the handle with the "H" and "C" index on them. Snap the caps out and you will see a screw under the cap. Remove the screw and the handle should slip off the end of the shaft. (You may need to tap them lightly on the backside of the handle with a plastic screwdriver handle, but your handles have only been in place 3 months so they should come off easy). (In a worst case scenario you can buy a "Handle Puller" at any hardware store for about $5.)

4. Next you will need to remove the Trim Escutcheons (Chrome trim rings on the wall). Most trim escutcheons are a two piece assemble. The round flat ring against the wall is slipped over a chrome tube and held in place by friction fit. The chrome tube then surrounds the faucett stem and is screwed into a threaded mount on the mixer body in the wall. Unscrew them and they should slip right off.

5. With the trim escutcheons off you will see the faucett stem assembly. You will see a nut right at the base of the faucett handle shaft where it enters the stem body. Under that nut there is a packing that seals around the shaft so that water will not leak out around the shaft.- Do Not Remove the Packing Nut- at the inner end of the faucett stem you will see some flats molded on the stem like a Nut. Select the correct size of plumbers socket and slip it over the handle and stem, slide it in until it locks on the inner nut flats, then use either the plumbers socket handle (A short rod of steel) or you can grip the plumbers socket with your channel locks and unscrew the stem from the shower mixer body and when its loose you simply pull it out.

6. You may need a flashlight at this step, but look in the hole where the faucett stem mounts into the mixer body in the wall and you will see a smaller hole inside the body. That inner hole will have either a Hex or a Square shape. Insert the appropriate end of your seat wrench into that inner hole. I usually like to tap the seat wrench a bit with my channel locks to insure it is locked in good before unscrewing the faucett seat. When its loose you can pull your seat wrench out and the faucett seat should be stuck on the end of your seat wrench. (It will look like a small chrome ring with male mounting threads on the backside and the hex or square hole in the middle.)

7. Repeat these steps to remove the opposite faucett stem & seat.

8.Once you have the stem and seat out, take them to your local hardware to get an exact match for the rubber bibb washer and the seat. (Make sure you get two washers and two seats, one for Hot and on for the cold side.)

9.To replace the washer, on the inner end of the stem you will see a rubber washer held in place by a screw. Remove the screw, pry the old washer off and insert a new washer of the correct size and replace the screw. (Very important here- slip the faucett handle on the end of the shaft and while holding the stem body turn the handle to the full open position, then remove the handle and lay the handle and stem aside.

10. To replace the seat begin by wrapping two or three wraps of White Single Density Teflon Tape around the male threads on the new seat, then press the seat on the end of your seat wrench and use the seat wrench to reach the faucett seat into the mixer body and screw it in place. Make sure you screw the seat in tight.

11. slip the faucett seat into the mixer body and screw in hand tight, then use your plumbers socket to tighten it snug.

12. Replace the Trim escutcheon. If your trim ring is just a friction fit you may want to apply a bit of silicone caulking on the backside before sliding it into place, then wipe the excess silicone off once the trim rings is tight against the wall.

13. Replace the handle and trim cap. (Remember "H" on the left & "C" on the right, unless your faucetts happen to be backwards.)

14. Turn the water back on and test the faucetts.

15. write a bill, drop it in the household maintenace cookie jar, grab the cash and take your significant other out to dinner.

I am attaching an illustration that should help you. In the illustration you will see a pipe from the bottom of the mixer to a tub spout. The illustration is for a combination Tub/shower mixer, however a shower stall mixer is the same but the bottom port is plugged.

[ABP]

Good call Lazypup, I was thinking along the same line. Most "Plumbers" do not even own nor know what a valve seat tool is. Most I saw would just replace the washers and go. (Amatures, go figure) That is why I quit working for other people and got my own license.

[LazyPup]

What I find most often is people forget to open the stems before reinstalling with new washers.

We must remember that the stem is basically a simple screw device. As we turn the handle it screws inward pressing the Bibb washer against the face of the valve seat to stop the water flow. As the Bibb washers become worn the stem continues to press in deeper and deeper. Many people then pull a stem, install a new washer and as the stem is screwed back into the mixer body the new washer is instantly distorted to the same place the old defective washer was. That is why we must be sure to take that extra step and twist the stem shaft to the full open position before re-installing it.

On a side note: When I first began my apprenticeship the Master I worked under managed the Plumbing company while his wife was dabbling in commercial real estate. She purchased an apartment complex that had 97 units, of 1,2 &3BR apartments plus a dozen 2BR townhouse's. both the 3BR apts and the townhouses had two bathrooms. My Master Plumber told me that they had a maintenance man on the property but he was a bit behind schedule so I was dispatched to go there and help out. I went to the property and met with both the maintenance man and the property manager and they both said one of the biggest problems they had was dripping faucetts everywhere and they showed me a stack of 40 or 50 work orders to support that statement. All the fixtures on the property were Price Phister so I went back to the shop to get a good supply of seats and washers. When my boss saw me in the warehouse he asked what i was there for and I told him. He said, "Never mind those da## work orders, just grab a couple hundred seats and a quart jar of washers and go change them all, then we won't have that problem to deal with for a while. For the next 5 days I did nothing but change seats and washers and needless to say, i saw about every problem you could encounter with a faucett stem, but on the other hand I gained a real appreciation for the old style Price Phister mixers and faucetts.

[Trudy]

leaking shower

Thank you so much lazypup for the quick and detailed reply. Just to clearify, the shower is on an a wall that is to the outside of the house. The impression I got from the plumber was that the stem is one piece for the hot and cold water and does not come out and that is why he would have to break out the wall. I know that the house is a little old and the parts used may be ancient but is there such a thing as that?
Great picture of the innards, thanks.