pex

[vdotmatrix]

i am putting in a sprinkler system and needed some good sources for info on PEX.
thanks

[LazyPup]

When you say "Sprinkler System" do you mean lawn irrigation sprinklers or fire sprinklers?

[vdotmatrix]

good morning. I am tying into the house supply that is located in the basement
from the street and from there the branches will go to the front yard and the other to the backyard each with a back flow preventer. So i noticed the price of copper and considred running PEX and transitioning to PVC once outside. It would be easier to work with than sweating copper....10ft of 3/4" copper is about $27. total.

[pushkins]

You can run PEX outside as long as it's buried, so there wouldn't be the need to transition to PVC until you wanted to come above ground.
Do you have the PEX crimping tools?, if not then you will need to buy them (or rent) at about $100.

[vdotmatrix]

SO....is there a PEX source online that anyone likes thebest..........

[LazyPup]

I hate to be the one to dis-illusion you but you are setting yourself up for a disaster.

The first step in designing an irrigation system is to determine how many sprinklers you need and what the gpm rate for each sprinkler is. From that you can consult the pipe friction loss tables to determine the proper size of pipe to maintain uniform pressure.

Just arbitrarily running one size of pipe will not only result in erratic pressure losses, if will also result in excessive velocity of flow and pipe wall erosion which leads to premature failure of the pipe.

If you could post a simple diagram of your proposed layout I would be glad to help you determine the correct pipe sizes.

I am attaching an illustration that shows the results of improper pipe size versus correct pipe sizing.

[pushkins]

Is the original posters question about installing a sprinkler line with PEX or just getting the water supply to points A and B in the front and rear yards ? I sort of thought the question was for a simple supply line to feed the sprinkler lines.

[vdotmatrix]

OKAY, the ulitmate use for this plumbing permit I pulled is for a sprinkler system.

To get around having to pull aditional permits I didn't continue past the backflow preventers.

Project begins at the basement where water comes in. I proposed copper until it the 2 branches go outside: branch 1 to frontyard, branch 2 backyard.

My plans called for COppeR through the house until the branches went outside then transition to PVC to packflow preventer and BEYOND.

I was about to buy some copper when I saw that 10ft. sections are now about $27. And ran into a guy at LOWES who talked to me about PEX.

I want to run PEX for all the inside work but use PVC thereafter.

I did notice that 3/4" PEX has a smaller inside diameter than the 3/4" copper.

i WILL send out diagrams of stuff...

[LazyPup]

I fully agree that at $27 for each 10ft section ($2.70/ft) copper could get cost prohibitive real quick however changing to another material should not effect your permit, providing of course that the material you select is code approved for the application specified in your permit.

Code defines the direct buried line from the municipal water main or home well to the structures “main water shutoff valve” as “Supply Piping” and all piping within the structure from the “Main water shutoff valve” to the point of demand as “Distribution Piping” therefore to run a line from the “Main water shutoff valve” across the house and out to the irrigation system you may use any pipe that is currently approved for “Distribution Piping”.

Once the pipe reaches the backflow preventer and exits the structure it is no longer considered “Distribution piping” but rather, it is then considered “Irrigation piping” and currently in the National Model Codes there are no restrictions on what type of pipe you may use for the irrigation system, however their could be some restrictions in your local code. Generally when the local code restricts the type of pipe in an irrigation system, they restrict it to any pipe that is approved for direct burial in the supply piping.

Let us begin by considering your options for the pipe within the structure from the house “main water shutoff valve” to the point where the line will exit the structure to the irrigation system.
Under both the IRC (International Residential Code) & the UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code) for the distribution piping in the house your options are:

1. Copper- types K, L & M in both hard drawn rigid pipe and continuous roll pipe.
2. Brass Pipe
3. Galvanized Steel Pipe
4. CPVC pipe
5. PEX Plastic Tubing

For cost reasons you have already ruled out copper pipe and if you even think copper is expensive try pricing Brass and Galvanized steel pipe, not to mention the labor required to install brass and steel.

You are then left with the choice between CPVC & PEX.

For your application I would strongly recommend you consider CPVC for a number of reasons;
1. CPVC is very user friendly, requiring only a hacksaw or PVC snap cutter to cut the pipe.
2. Requires only the appropriate primer & glue to make the joints.
3. When you consider the cost of both the pipe and fittings CPVC is generally cheaper than PEX.
4. CPVC is available in sizes up to 2” so you will have no problem finding the correct size to maintain full system pressure.
5. CPVC only requires moderate protection from UV light exposure.
6. Per ASTM specifications PEX tubing MUST BE protected from UV light exposure at all times. Primarily it is intended to be run inside of walls with copper stub-outs at each fixture location. In situations where PEX must be surface run on a basement wall or when run through joist bays it must be protected from light exposure, both direct & indirect (reflected) light. The rule of thumb is that if there is enough light present to see the pipe with the naked eye without the use of a flashlight the pipe must be protected from UV. The level of protection may require enclosing the pipe in a chase, covering the underside of the joist bay with a plastic membrane or continuously encasing the PEX tubing in an approved UV protector sleeve.
7. While PEX tubing is relatively inexpensive when compared to copper, the fittings are very expensive.
8. PEX requires special tools to install the fittings. The tools are about $120 for each size required plus another $25 for the required Go/No Go gage that is used to check the joints.

You may be able to rent the tools at your home supply center or a local tool rental but once your project is installed and the tools are returned what would you do in the middle of the night if a problem should occur?

Once you get your pipe run inside the house and out to the irrigation system you may want to rethink the PVC as well. I would prefer to use continuous roll PE Pipe (polyethylene pipe).

PE pipe is commonly available in 50’, 75’, 100’, 300’ and 1000’ lengths which means you could install your entire irrigation system with an absolute minimum of underground joints and when we consider that the most common point of failure is a joint that can prove to be a big plus.. (I have found my best local source of PE pipe is TSC (Tractor Supply Co).

PVC pipe is rigid therefore it requires great care to insure you trenching is straight whereas PE pipe, being flexible, it will tolerate a trench that is a bit crooked or an uneven landscape that has hills and valleys.

PE pipe does not require any special tools. It can easily be cut with a PVC snap cutter or a utility knife.

PE pipe uses “Barb fittings” which are similar to the PEX fittings however Barb fittings do not require any special tools. You simply push the barb into the end of the pipe, then clamp the pipe in place with two screw on hose clamps similar to the screw on clamps used on automotive radiator hoses. (I prefer to also have a 5gal bucket of hot water to warm & soften the end of the pipe before inserting the barb fitting).

The Barb fittings are made from both brass and nylon. The nylon fittings will work just as well as the brass and they are much cheaper.



PS-I have the RAINBIRD LAWN IRRIGATION HANDBOOK in PDF format. Send me an email and I will send you a copy.

[vdotmatrix]

Also, I just saw SHARKBITE connectors for PEX, COPPER and PVC.....

Looks like I may be using a little of each. The PEX will feed nicely behind the wall and use a sharkbite elbo for PEX on one side and PVC on the other.

HAs anyone used these sharkbite connections

[jnaas2]

We had a lot of trouble with sharbites leaking, the only place I would recommend using them is somewhere easy to get to and where you will notice if they start to leak. The thing to remember is the easier something goes together, the easier it is to get apart and sometimes it comes apart when you dont want it to. Thats why I like copper, it may not be the easiest thing to work with but when you go home there is no need to worry that a line will blow apart

[vdotmatrix]

Hi LP!
I have a rainbird system design. I am at the beggining stages when I saw the sharkbite products.

If I use the SHARKBITE for this one section I can snake a piece of PEX through the wall instead of tearing the wall apart to run an 8 ft section of
rigid copper or PVC.

EXCEPT:

I noticed that 3/4" PEX and 3/4" copper (and 3/4" PVC for that matter), all have different ID although the may still be CTS.

One of my branches goes like this copper-sharkbite-PEX-PVC.

What effect will this slight change in diameter for 8ft have on the water pressure for a proposed sprinkler system?

OKAY I tried to upload a PDF file(s) and there is 19.5kb limit on what can be uploaded....

I fully agree that at $27 for each 10ft section ($2.70/ft) copper could get cost prohibitive real quick however changing to another material should not effect your permit, providing of course that the material you select is code approved for the application specified in your permit.

Code defines the direct buried line from the municipal water main or home well to the structures “main water shutoff valve” as “Supply Piping” and all piping within the structure from the “Main water shutoff valve” to the point of demand as “Distribution Piping” therefore to run a line from the “Main water shutoff valve” across the house and out to the irrigation system you may use any pipe that is currently approved for “Distribution Piping”.

Once the pipe reaches the backflow preventer and exits the structure it is no longer considered “Distribution piping” but rather, it is then considered “Irrigation piping” and currently in the National Model Codes there are no restrictions on what type of pipe you may use for the irrigation system, however their could be some restrictions in your local code. Generally when the local code restricts the type of pipe in an irrigation system, they restrict it to any pipe that is approved for direct burial in the supply piping.

Let us begin by considering your options for the pipe within the structure from the house “main water shutoff valve” to the point where the line will exit the structure to the irrigation system.
Under both the IRC (International Residential Code) & the UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code) for the distribution piping in the house your options are:

1. Copper- types K, L & M in both hard drawn rigid pipe and continuous roll pipe.
2. Brass Pipe
3. Galvanized Steel Pipe
4. CPVC pipe
5. PEX Plastic Tubing

For cost reasons you have already ruled out copper pipe and if you even think copper is expensive try pricing Brass and Galvanized steel pipe, not to mention the labor required to install brass and steel.

You are then left with the choice between CPVC & PEX.

For your application I would strongly recommend you consider CPVC for a number of reasons;
1. CPVC is very user friendly, requiring only a hacksaw or PVC snap cutter to cut the pipe.
2. Requires only the appropriate primer & glue to make the joints.
3. When you consider the cost of both the pipe and fittings CPVC is generally cheaper than PEX.
4. CPVC is available in sizes up to 2” so you will have no problem finding the correct size to maintain full system pressure.
5. CPVC only requires moderate protection from UV light exposure.
6. Per ASTM specifications PEX tubing MUST BE protected from UV light exposure at all times. Primarily it is intended to be run inside of walls with copper stub-outs at each fixture location. In situations where PEX must be surface run on a basement wall or when run through joist bays it must be protected from light exposure, both direct & indirect (reflected) light. The rule of thumb is that if there is enough light present to see the pipe with the naked eye without the use of a flashlight the pipe must be protected from UV. The level of protection may require enclosing the pipe in a chase, covering the underside of the joist bay with a plastic membrane or continuously encasing the PEX tubing in an approved UV protector sleeve.
7. While PEX tubing is relatively inexpensive when compared to copper, the fittings are very expensive.
8. PEX requires special tools to install the fittings. The tools are about $120 for each size required plus another $25 for the required Go/No Go gage that is used to check the joints.

You may be able to rent the tools at your home supply center or a local tool rental but once your project is installed and the tools are returned what would you do in the middle of the night if a problem should occur?

Once you get your pipe run inside the house and out to the irrigation system you may want to rethink the PVC as well. I would prefer to use continuous roll PE Pipe (polyethylene pipe).

PE pipe is commonly available in 50’, 75’, 100’, 300’ and 1000’ lengths which means you could install your entire irrigation system with an absolute minimum of underground joints and when we consider that the most common point of failure is a joint that can prove to be a big plus.. (I have found my best local source of PE pipe is TSC (Tractor Supply Co).

PVC pipe is rigid therefore it requires great care to insure you trenching is straight whereas PE pipe, being flexible, it will tolerate a trench that is a bit crooked or an uneven landscape that has hills and valleys.

PE pipe does not require any special tools. It can easily be cut with a PVC snap cutter or a utility knife.

PE pipe uses “Barb fittings” which are similar to the PEX fittings however Barb fittings do not require any special tools. You simply push the barb into the end of the pipe, then clamp the pipe in place with two screw on hose clamps similar to the screw on clamps used on automotive radiator hoses. (I prefer to also have a 5gal bucket of hot water to warm & soften the end of the pipe before inserting the barb fitting).

The Barb fittings are made from both brass and nylon. The nylon fittings will work just as well as the brass and they are much cheaper.



PS-I have the RAINBIRD LAWN IRRIGATION HANDBOOK in PDF format. Send me an email and I will send you a copy.

[LazyPup]

The minor changes in ID between copper, PEX and PVC are not the problem.

The problem is that 3/4" is not near enough water supply for any irrigation system that has more than one sprinkler head.

If you have your proposed layout in PDF email it directly to me and i will review it.

LazyPup@yahoo.com

[buckofdurham]

HAs anyone used these sharkbite connections

Their exspensive, they are good for that last connection. When you have a little water in the copper pipe.
I've not used the plastic ones. IMO, Your crimp tool will be more efficent.

[vdotmatrix]

Well so much for using the sharkbite fittings, the city of alexandria is using the 2006 IPC and the state of VA has not adopted the 2007 updates so the ASSE1061 standards might as well be written in chinese.

So, NO SHARKBITE fittings.

So what i want to do now is NOT tear apart the wall which has a 21"x17" access panel for the water supply at the baseboard , where the water comes in from the street, a 6"x6" opening at the firebreak midway up the wall, and all the space I need above the wall in the false ceiling.

from previous the discussion, I am putting in a copper 3/4" "T" on the water supply followed by a 3/4" full bore ball valve with waste, and then another "T" which begins the branches for the water supplies for the sprinkler front and back.

the branch that goes up the wall and across the ceiling to the back is my dilema now.

FROM THE TEE: could I use flexible 3/4" copper tubing the same way I would use Type-M and snake it through the wall to the above ceiling...

OR

Could I use PEX, snake it through the wall to the above ceiling...( the Inner diameter of 3/4" PEX is smaller than 3/4" copper; any issues here?)

We had a lot of trouble with sharbites leaking, the only place I would recommend using them is somewhere easy to get to and where you will notice if they start to leak. The thing to remember is the easier something goes together, the easier it is to get apart and sometimes it comes apart when you dont want it to. Thats why I like copper, it may not be the easiest thing to work with but when you go home there is no need to worry that a line will blow apart