Bathroom vanity install. Drain too low out of wall...

[LazyPup]

First of all. when dealing with any existing pipe greater than 1" the 12" and 14" pipe wrenches are nearly useless. At a minimum I would have used an two 18" pipe wrench's and preferably an 18" to steady the fitting while turning the pipe with a 24" wrench, all the while keeping a 36" handy in case the 24" was difficult to turn.

Now that the 22.5deg elbow is loose, you have no alternative but to change it.Any time an NPT (National pipe taper) thread is reversed, no matter how slightly you must completely disconnect the joint, clean the threads, apply new PTFE tape or pipe dope, then reassemble the joint, however in this case you may not do that.

Back in the days when your drain & waste system was first put in cast iron (CI) pipe was state of the art however, even though there was 1-1/2 CI pipe available, as a rule they used CI pipe for lines 2" or greater and galvanized iron pipe (GIP), brass pipe, lead pipe or DWV grade copper pipe for 1-1/2" & 1-1/4" lines. in your case they used GIP. They did not make DWV or Sanitary grade fittings which have a short radius bend at all changes of direction therefore they used pressure fittings which have sharp angular bends. Once that 22.5deg fitting loosened you were committed to disconnect and redo that joint, however once the fitting is removed the act of replacing it is now defined as "new work" and you are obligated to meet the code standards that are in effect at the time the new work is performed, thus the 22.5deg elbow MUST BE replaced with a DWV grade 1/8th bend. Code also prohibits using any female threaded fittings therefore the only solution is to cut the pipe back, connect a short section of PVC to the existing GIP with a Fernco, then glue in a PVC 1/8th bend.

Code also now prohibits installing a Tee on a horizontal line therefore you should begin by cutting the horizontal line slightly downstream of that TEE and cut cut the vent line slightly above the TEE then tie in PVC to the drain line by means of a Fernco, install a wye & 1/8th bend or Combo at the vent location, tying the PVC into the vertical GIP vent by means of another Fernco and continue upstream to the tub location with new Schedule 40 PVC pipe.

Also, in reviewing the photos I could not help but notice that you do not have the proper hangers on the CPVC potable water distribution lines. Code requires all lines with the exception of PEX to have one hanger within 12" of any change of direction greater than 45deg and one hanger for every 48 linear inches of pipe. (PEX requires a hanger for every 36"). Code also prohibits using wire or metal hangers on plastic pipe, therefore you must install plastic J-hooks, plastic pipe hangers or plastic pipe strapping.

It should also be noted that when you install a PVC male adapter into a thread, you are required to apply 3 wraps of RED triple density PTFE Tape (Teflon tape*) or Thread Joint Compound to the threads prior to installing the fitting.

* The word "Teflon" is a proprietary trade name of Du Pont Corp, therefore the thread tape made by other manufacturers must be listed as PTFE, which is the chemical abbreviation for teflon.

[DKAudio]

I asked a plumber last night about what that hub n spigot seal ring is called. He said its a TY-SEAL fitting

I already mentioned that in a previouse post. They are very difficult to get if your a resident and can't purchase with a PO to a distributor. I have the other pieces I ordered on their way, hopefully they will work.

First of all. when dealing with any existing pipe greater than 1" the 12" and 14" pipe wrenches are nearly useless. At a minimum I would have used an two 18" pipe wrench's and preferably an 18" to steady the fitting while turning the pipe with a 24" wrench, all the while keeping a 36" handy in case the 24" was difficult to turn.

Now that the 22.5deg elbow is loose, you have no alternative but to change it.Any time an NPT (National pipe taper) thread is reversed, no matter how slightly you must completely disconnect the joint, clean the threads, apply new PTFE tape or pipe dope, then reassemble the joint, however in this case you may not do that.

Back in the days when your drain & waste system was first put in cast iron (CI) pipe was state of the art however, even though there was 1-1/2 CI pipe available, as a rule they used CI pipe for lines 2" or greater and galvanized iron pipe (GIP), brass pipe, lead pipe or DWV grade copper pipe for 1-1/2" & 1-1/4" lines. in your case they used GIP. They did not make DWV or Sanitary grade fittings which have a short radius bend at all changes of direction therefore they used pressure fittings which have sharp angular bends. Once that 22.5deg fitting loosened you were committed to disconnect and redo that joint, however once the fitting is removed the act of replacing it is now defined as "new work" and you are obligated to meet the code standards that are in effect at the time the new work is performed, thus the 22.5deg elbow MUST BE replaced with a DWV grade 1/8th bend. Code also prohibits using any female threaded fittings therefore the only solution is to cut the pipe back, connect a short section of PVC to the existing GIP with a Fernco, then glue in a PVC 1/8th bend.

Code also now prohibits installing a Tee on a horizontal line therefore you should begin by cutting the horizontal line slightly downstream of that TEE and cut cut the vent line slightly above the TEE then tie in PVC to the drain line by means of a Fernco, install a wye & 1/8th bend or Combo at the vent location, tying the PVC into the vertical GIP vent by means of another Fernco and continue upstream to the tub location with new Schedule 40 PVC pipe.

Also, in reviewing the photos I could not help but notice that you do not have the proper hangers on the CPVC potable water distribution lines. Code requires all lines with the exception of PEX to have one hanger within 12" of any change of direction greater than 45deg and one hanger for every 48 linear inches of pipe. (PEX requires a hanger for every 36"). Code also prohibits using wire or metal hangers on plastic pipe, therefore you must install plastic J-hooks, plastic pipe hangers or plastic pipe strapping.

It should also be noted that when you install a PVC male adapter into a thread, you are required to apply 3 wraps of RED triple density PTFE Tape (Teflon tape*) or Thread Joint Compound to the threads prior to installing the fitting.

* The word "Teflon" is a proprietary trade name of Du Pont Corp, therefore the thread tape made by other manufacturers must be listed as PTFE, which is the chemical abbreviation for teflon.

Thanks for the reply LazyPup, a lot of good information there. I think I am ok with everything except I was going to install a Tee for the vent. I did replace the GIP vent with PVC all the way through the roof. I did not know that a Tee was not allowed. I will use a Wye or could I use a sanitary Tee?

The 22.5° fitting on top of the hub/spigot was the one in question. Since the lead/oakum joint is now loose I am going to have to take that pipe out. Hopefully one of the donuts or multi-tite Ferncos will fit and I can go right to PVC at the bell.

The CPVC is not complete yet so all the hangers aren't installed. The two CPVC shut offs you see in the picture are going to go a my new bathtub/shower valve.

[LazyPup]

code prohibits any tee on a horizontal line,,,you MUST USE a Wye & 1/8 bend or a combo...a combo is the same as a wye & 1/8 bend but it is all made in one piece.

[DKAudio]

code prohibits any tee on a horizontal line,,,you MUST US a Wye & 1/8 bend or a combo...a combo is the same as a wye & 1/8 bend but it is all made in one piece.

Is that line as well or just DWV applications?

For a PVC solvent drain line, can you use a 22.5º fitting like this...

The reason I'm asking is since pipe would be inserted in both ends there may be a code to prevent things from getting "caught" on the inside edge of the later pipe.

You also mentioned that you cannot use female thread fittings. Why is that? If you aren't using solvent then half of the fittings would need to be female.

Thanks for the information, learning a lot.

[LazyPup]

I'm sure you have already noticed that I refer to DWV elbows by a fraction rather than by the actual angle of the change in direction. Even though the elbows used for both pressure pipe and DWV applications ultimately change the direction by the same angles their is one distinct difference. Pressure pipe fittings have sharp angular changes in direction whereas DWV fittings have a radius curve at the change of direction. The reasoning behind the differences is quite simple. In a pressure pipe, the pressure driving the fluid will maintain the velocity of flow through that fitting but in a DWV pipe the velocity of flow is driven by gravity, therefore we must minimize restrictions in order to maintain a good velocity of flow. In DWV pipe velocity of flow is critical because often the liquid will be conveying solid particulates and if the velocity or depth of the liquid in the pipe is too low the solid particulates will settle to the bottom of the pipe, rub the pipe wall, which further slows them down and the liquid would flow past, leaving the solids to collect into solid masses that will dry in place once the liquid has passed and the end result is a clogged pipe.

In order to simplify communications between one plumber and another or a plumber and his supplier the industry has adopted a simple method to identify Pressure versus DWV fittings.

Pressure pipe elbows have sharp angle and are identified by the angle of the change in direction, thus if you ask for a 90deg, 45deg, or a 22.5deg elbow you will get a pressure fitting.

On the other hand, DWV grade elbows are not called elbows. They are properly called "bends" and they are identified by the fraction of a circle which is represented by the angle, thus a DWV grade 90deg elbow would properly be called a 1/4bend while a 45deg DWV elbow would be called an 1/8th bend and a 22.5deg elbow is a 1/16th bend (360deg divided by the angle of change equals the fraction).

Wye's are easy, they simply do not make pressure wye's.

When describing Tee's or crosses DWV grade fittings are prefaced by the word "Sanitary" or often the contraction "Sani" thus if you ask for a Tee you will get a pressure tee but if you ask for a "Sani-Tee" you will get a DWV grade Tee, assuming of course that you are asking someone knowledgeable in plumbing and not one of the under paid ribbon clerks in the local home supply center.

It should also be noted here that you will find fittings that are listed as "Street" fittings. A street fitting has a female hub opening on one end and the other end is a male spigot fitting, the same size as the pipe. When making up a Wye & 1/8th bend if you use a common 1/8th bend you would need a short nipple of pipe between the two fittings, but if you use a 'Street 1/8th bend, the male spigot end will fit directly into the female hub of the Wye thus the overall length of your fitting is less and you have one less joint to glue, not to mention, you don't need any pipe to make the joint.

Now to answer your question:

quote-
"For a PVC solvent drain line, can you use a 22.5º fitting like this...

The reason I'm asking is since pipe would be inserted in both ends there may be a code to prevent things from getting "caught" on the inside edge of the later pipe."

When most people hear the word "schedule" they think in terms of a timetable, such as a buss schedule or the schedule of meetings they must attend, but that is not entirely correct. The word "Schedule" actually means a list, therefore a buss schedule is a list of the times when the buss runs.

PVC pipe is actually made to the Iron Pipe Standard (abbreviated IPS). Under the IPS standard pipe is actually made to "Nominal Trade Dimensions". While pipe is properly defined by its inside diameter there are slight variations in the internal dimension determined by the thickness of the pipe wall. Under the IPS the slight variations in wall thickness are defined on tables called Schedules, thus we have shed. 20, sched.30, sched.40, sched.80, sched. 100, sched, 120 and sched. 200. and while pipe is properly defined by its inside diameter in reality the outside diameter of the pipe stays constant and there are slight variations on the ID based upon the Sched. or thixkness of the pipe wall, the higher the schedule number the thicker the wall and therefore the smaller the internal diameter. (By keeping the OD standard we only need one set of taps and dyes to make the threads).

For DWV applications in order to insure the ID of the pipe will be the same as the ID of the fittings so that there will be no internal restrictions such as you describe, code specifies that we may only use schedule 40 pipe for DWV.

To help answer your question about the use of Wye's and Tee's I have prepared and attached a simple illustration.

In Fig.A you will see a Tee on a horizontal line. Note that when the liquid drops down the vertical line it will go directly through the tee and hit the bottom of the pipe. At that instant the liquid actually stops momentarily, then it spreads out, some moving slightly upstream while the remained moves downstream. This causes two problems; 1. the liquid momentarily stops, then begins flowing again by gravity force, but the movement starts out slow, thus we have lost the velocity of flow and 2. when some of the water moves in the upstream direction it will ultimately come to a stop, then begin flowing downstream. If that liquid contains any solid particulates they will be deposited on the bottom of the pipe as the liquid slowly begins to move downstream again. Once the liquid flows away those solid particulates will dry in place and before long you would have a clog.

Note in Fig.B that when we use a Wye & 1/8th bend or a combo the liquid is directed in the downstream direction and their is no loss in the velocity of flow, thus we do not have the problems with clogs that would be associated with a Tee.

[DKAudio]

I figured out the 1/8 bend thing on my own, I WAS wondering why you didn't just call is a 45 though

I understand why a Tee can't be used on a horizontal run if the upper inlet is draining, I figured for a vent it wouldn't matter. I did get to Home Depot and got a Wye and a Street 1/8 bend to do it right.

I still don't understand why you said you can't use female thread fittings though.

Thanks again!

[pushkins]

I think the reason for not being allowed to use female threaded fittings is to avoid "stuff" (hair an the like) getting caught up on exposed internal threads.
When you thread a male and female pipe together very seldom if ever do the male and female threads cover each other over completely, this leaves female threaded pipe exposed internally.

[LazyPup]

QUOTE;"I understand why a Tee can't be used on a horizontal run if the upper inlet is draining, I figured for a vent it wouldn't matter."

The answer to this question is quite simple, even though it may seem a bit elusive to the untrained eye. While we normally think of a vent as only conveying air or sewer gasses, in reality there can be considerable amounts of liquid in a vent line from vent vapor condensation or rain water entering the roof opening, and taking this discussion to the next level, we cannot be certain that there will not be a change in the status of the line as a result of future remodeling and adding fixtures. For this reason code requires that all vent lines must be constructed with DWV grade materials and all vent lines must be pitched to insure any liquid accumulating in the line will flow down to the drain system.

The specific reason that female PVC fittings are prohibited is because as PVC ages or if exposed to appreciable amounts of UV light the plastic material often becomes quite brittle. In addition, there is a significant difference in the rates of thermal expansion between PVC and metal pipe or fittings as a result, there is a very high failure rate of joints where a female PVC fitting is used to connect to a male metal pipe or fitting. As the male pipe or fitting expands the hub of the female PVC fitting cracks and results in a leak. On the other hand, if the joint is made by means of a male PVC fitting inserted into a female metal fitting, the metal fitting surrounds the plastic holding it in compression and there is no problem with cracks in the PVC.

Generally the problem is much more evident in pressure piping than in DWV piping, however under the general rules in the code they list "Prohibited Joints" and under prohibited joints they list:

1.No Female PVC fittings
ref. IRC-2904.16.2 & UPC-606.2.2
The only exception to the no female fitting rule is that we do use a female thread adapter and a male threaded plug to make a cleanout however once that is done, the female thread adapter is no longer considered a fitting unto itself, but rather it is classified as a sub-component of a cleanout.

It is then argued by many homeowners and DIY'ers that if the fitting is illegal, why do they sell them in the hardware or home supply center? Here again, the answer is simple. PVC pipe is used for many applications outside of plumbing, such as irrigation, industrial chemical processing and HVAC. It is the responsibility of the end user to know what products and materials that may be used for their application, however the retailer must maintain an inventory to meet the needs of all their customer base.

2.Code also states that there SHALL BE NO glued joints between different types of plastic. I.E. PVC to ABS etc, There is an exception to this rule which states that you may have a maximum of one(1) glue joint per structure between different plastics with the expressed written consent of the local inspection authority.

Ref: IRC-2904.16.2 & UPC 316.1.6

[DKAudio]

Oh, I thought you meant no female fittings period. It makes sense when you are joining two different materials (PVC to Metal).

I got home and found that my 2" SV to 1.5" Sch 40 is not the right donut! To my suprise the hub is HX. Therefore, I just ordered my 4th donut and it will work! It is a 2" HX CI to 1.5" Sch 40 PVC. It was very hard to find and I only could see 1 manufacturer that makes them...Dallas Specialty. Needless to say it is shipping from TX.

I got the lead and oakum joint apart and cleaned and ready for the new donut once it arrives.

Thanks for all the help!