CABINETS FOR A 94" WALL

[vdotmatrix]

WE ARE EMBROILED IN A dispute with our general contractor. we went to the cabinet place (FERGUSONS) AND BROUGHT THE ELEVATIONS for the salesman..we picked out our new kitchen cabinets and he plopped everything on the home design program a poof there was our kitchen all printed out.....these plans detailed a 96" wall, 42" cabinets, 18" of space between cabs and the granite countertop, and 1.5" crown moulding.....he faxed these plans to our general contractor. a day goes by and he gives the fergusons the nod, the guy hits the enter key and we write a check for $15,000.

so?

well, we only have a 94" wall. and the tile isn't laid yet...bottom line..the contractor didn't verify the field measurements and now they hung these giant cabinets, and we about 15 7/8 or 16 1/4" under the cabinets and no crown moulding.

what are standard cabinets for an 8 foot wall? and space underneath?

[jackofall]

Min between counter & cab is 16". 42" upper cabs are generally used with 9' ceilings but not a problem its already your house with no inspections due and if there is your 1/2" may go unnoticed.

[vdotmatrix]

16"? Are you saying this is a code requirement?

quote:Originally posted by jackofall

Min between counter & cab is 16". 42" upper cabs are generally used with 9' ceilings but not a problem its already your house with no inspections due and if there is your 1/2" may go unnoticed.

It's sometimes better to be lucky than smart.

[jackofall]

I don't know if its code but that is close to standard

[Snoonyb]

Counter top height should be 36" above the "finished" floor. This is somewhat criticle if you have a DW and are installing a tile floor which is preceeded by a wonder boadr or other stabilizing substrait.

The standard height to the bottom of the upper cabinets is 54", which leaves 18" and in some municipalities, this will be a code for the cabinets adjacent to the countertop cooking appliance. In fact, you were once required to install a vent hood 6" larger than the cooktop.

That being said, I've seen the distance between the countertop and the upper cabinets from 12.5" and 22".

In your "disagreement" with your contractor, are there two culprits in this, was the contractor with you when you ordered the cabinets.
Since 96" is the standard finished ceiling height using conventional dimensioned lumber, how did yours become 94".

If this was due to repeated floor over floor installation, it would have been obvious from the demo.

Illegitimas non-carborundum

[vdotmatrix]

well, we went to fergusson enterprises, they had a showroom salesman sitdown with the program and we designed our new kitchen and we also provided the elevations which were flawed. the finished plans were faxed to our contractor, who incredibly, signed off on the plans with out field verifying the dimensions firstly on the architects plans and secondly on the cabinet makers plans, and he simply checked off that everything would fit. That was the biggest SNAFU and especially since it was happening to us.

quote:Originally posted by Snoonyb

Counter top height should be 36" above the "finished" floor. This is somewhat criticle if you have a DW and are installing a tile floor which is preceeded by a wonder boadr or other stabilizing substrait.

The standard height to the bottom of the upper cabinets is 54", which leaves 18" and in some municipalities, this will be a code for the cabinets adjacent to the countertop cooking appliance. In fact, you were once required to install a vent hood 6" larger than the cooktop.

That being said, I've seen the distance between the countertop and the upper cabinets from 12.5" and 22".

In your "disagreement" with your contractor, are there two culprits in this, was the contractor with you when you ordered the cabinets.
Since 96" is the standard finished ceiling height using conventional dimensioned lumber, how did yours become 94".

If this was due to repeated floor over floor installation, it would have been obvious from the demo.

Illegitimas non-carborundum

[:0]

It's sometimes better to be lucky than smart.

[Snoonyb]

And so, 14 days later, what were the solutions you came to?

Illegitimas non-carborundum

[vdotmatrix]

Well, There are no solutions except that during the punch list the contractor came and fiddled around with a few jobs and left and said everything was done. I was just at a friends house in dillon Montana and they have 9 ft walls and 42 inch cabinets and it looks right......and i whipped out my tape and measured exactly 18" from countertop to bottom of cabinet.....the only really sucky thing is that we have to lug that 31 pound stand mixer up and down from the cabinets using a ^%^$$#%# stool.

It's sometimes better to be lucky than smart.

[Snoonyb]

I would hope that this would be an example and that everyone should take a lesson from it.

Interesting.
There was a contractor hired.
An architect hired.
Apparently, no one including the homeowner had a tape measure.
The contract is a legal document.
The architects prepared and signed drawings are a legal document.
Each of these documents are "stand alone."

By the way, there is an "appliance lift," available from cabinet hardware suppliers, which installs in a base cabinet, is spring loaded and is for the express purpose of affording easy access for heavy, awkward appliances.


Illegitimas non-carborundum

[LazyPup]

A common stud measures 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 x 96 inches.

A stud wall has both a footer and header which adds an additional 3 inches to the stud length, thus a common rough height is 96 + 3 = 99"

Allow a 1/2 drop down for sheetrock on the ceiling and you end up with 98 1/2inches.

In order to end up with a 94 inch finish wall one of four possibilites had to occur:

1. there was a floor upon floor buildup.
2. there was an additional drop on the ceiling
3. all the studs had to be cut down 3 1/2 inches.
4. The material supplier supplied non-standard studs.

I can not imagine a GC going to the expense and bother of cutting down all the studs unless there was a specific reason listed on the plans.

I dont recall ever seeing a non-standard stud that was 3 1/2 inches short.

Did the original plan call for a raised floor or drop ceiling? If so, was that info provided to the cabinet designer?

Did this problem result from a cost plus field change, and if so was it approved by the architect?

Doesn't anyone on that job have a tape measure?

I suspect the last line of the post is the answer. The tile isn't laid yet. No doubt they used the stud wall dimension to compute the cabinets and faied to note the cement board buildup for tile underlayment. In that case the problem rests either with the cabinet designer or the individual who gave him/her the rough elevation for the layout.

No doubt the 42 inch cabinets will allow 18 inches in your friends house,,as you stated, they have 9 foot walls. With walls a foot higher there should be no problem getting an additional 2 inches countertop to cabinet clarance.

[vdotmatrix]

You simply can't imagine our frustration.

the architect mis-measured the &^%*&$%^$#$%#@&^* wall.

yes, the architect we paid thousands of dollars to draw up plans for our one time only addition mis-measured an existing wall and simply called it 12 feet when in reality was 11' 3" so..the 9" haunted the keystone cops as they bumbled their way into history-uh, at our house.

SO, the GC asleep at the wheel, orders 42" cabinets. but prior, they discover that the roof is not lining up with the existing roof. they blamed it on the pitch of the existing roof before the architectural design flaw was realized when there was only 25" to enter the east side of the kitchen and less that 36" to enter the northwest entrance to the kitchen. -uckin nightmare...

meanwhile, the gc is trying to charge us for all this shift calling all this crap "change orders" that the typical construction project should expect......but I, maintain that screwups do not fall under my change orders.......

so begins the most agravating intrusions on our residence and we had a newborn at the time.......

I can go on and on and this thing still has not been resolved.

this guy is a member of the BBB, NARI, you name it this guy has a shingle for it.

It's sometimes better to be lucky than smart.

[LazyPup]

I can certainly realize your frustrations and no doubt all the anxiety has left you at odd with your GC, but in this instance I think I have to agree with the GC.

The error, and ultimately your legal cause of action is with the architect.

Any deviation from the original plan is a change order, whether it is a change initiated by the owner, architect or conditions on the job. If that said change results in additional materials or labor, then the GC must be compensated for his efforts.

In all liklihood you are at wits end at the GC solely as a result of the anxieties created by the architects mistake.
Be honest a moment, things arent going as planned and the GC is the one you have daily contact with, ergo the one you vent to, The architect was the bumbling general who ordered the troops out..The GC and his crew are just the poor dumb solders who have to make do with a bad plan, and in the end, the homeowner is the non-combatant who suffers the collateral damage.

There is an up side though...architects carry a very good malpractice insurance policy to cover such incidences. You might contact a lawyer and recover your losses, or even get a whole new set of cabinets that fit properly.

[vdotmatrix]

quote:Originally posted by LazyPup

I can certainly realize your frustrations and no doubt all the anxiety has left you at odd with your GC, but in this instance I think I have to agree with the GC.

The error, and ultimately your legal cause of action is with the architect.

Any deviation from the original plan is a change order, whether it is a change initiated by the owner, architect or conditions on the job. If that said change results in additional materials or labor, then the GC must be compensated for his efforts.

In all liklihood you are at wits end at the GC solely as a result of the anxieties created by the architects mistake.
Be honest a moment, things arent going as planned and the GC is the one you have daily contact with, ergo the one you vent to, The architect was the bumbling general Who ordered the troops out..The GC and his crew are just the poor dumb solders who have to make do with a bad plan, and in the end, the homeowner is the non-combatant who suffers the collateral damage.

There is an up side though...architects carry a very good malpractice insurance policy to cover such incidences. You might contact a lawyer and recover your losses, or even get a whole new set of cabinets that fit properly.

EXCEPT: ON THE ARCHITECTURAL PLANS, IN PLAIN KING'S ENGLISH IT STATES JUST AS PLAIN AS MY DOUBLE RIDGELINE, "THAT THE GENERAL CONTRACTOR SHALL FIELD VERIFY ALL DIMENSIONS AGAINST THE PLANS"....THE CABINET MANUFACTURERS ALSO STATE THAT THE DRAWINGS MUST BE FIELD VERIFIED BEFORE ORDERING......EVERYONE HAS A DISCLAIMER BECAUSE IN THE END THE &*^%$%%# GENERAL CONTRACTOR IS THE ENTITY, THE EXPERT, THE GUY IN CHARGE OF BUILDING THIS THING ACCORDING TO PLANS AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANT than THAT [ AND I SUSPECT YOU MAY BE A CONTRACTOR by the way], THE GENERAL CONTRACTOR WAS BEING PAID NEARLY $1000 PER WEEK TO OVER SEE THIS PROJECT. ok

IT WAS HIS JOB AS GC TO OVERSEE THE PROJECT OTHERWISE I WOULD HAVE DONE THE ENTIRE THING MY SELF IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR OUR NEW BORN. CAPICE?

A CHANGE ORDER IS NOT FOR NEGLIGENCE.

THE GC DID NOT DO HIS HOMEWORK.
A typical CHANGE ORDER would be to: UPGRADE PLUMBING; ADD A BAY WINDOW; CHANGE TO GRADE 4 GRANITE; not to TIE THE FOUNDATION DRAINAGE TO THE DOWNSPOUT DRAINAGE, MOVE THE HOUSE OUT 14' INSTEAD OF 12',

THOSE ARE VALID CHANGE ORDERS.

"UH, I AM TOO BUSY TO PAY ATTENTION TO DETAIL AND MAKE SURE THIS PROJECT GOES SMOOTHLY..-the contractor

NOT SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS VERIFYING AN EXISTING WALL'S DIMENSION AGAINST THE PLANS....HELL HE SHOULD HAVE SEEN THIS WHEN TH E MASONS POURED THE BASEMENT FOUNDATION........AND SAVED HIMSELF HOURS OF GRIEF AND $.

SO, AS YOU MIGHT GET A SENSE THAT BEING in A FREE COUNTRY, AN OPEN MESSAGE BOARD AND A GOOD SPORT, SIDING WITH THE ^%&%$^#%$^& LAME ASS GENERAL CONTRACTOR IS BAD JU-JU TODAY.

IF YOU HAVE AN EXTRA $135,000 TO THROW AROUND ON A FINISHED PRODUCT THAT DIDN'T FOLLOW THE AIA ACHITECTURAL PLANS YOU PAID THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS FOR PUT A FEATHEr IN YOUR HAT AND CALL IT MACARONI!.

So until you do spend that much and come out looking pretty and smelling rosey, and everything turns out the way it was planned then be happy, ours didn't, it sucked and we had a newborn distraction in the middle of a bulding project

, please think about your comments in regard to the mission of this board.

I have no idea why I posted this to begin with a nd I suspect I had links to a website and photographs which i removed months ago and all that is left is what is on this topic...

all has been deleted cuz this is not a current topic at our house anymore...

CYA thanks for the reply!




It's sometimes better to be lucky than smart.

[Snoonyb]

Is it because you are using either your pastors or your attny's keyboard, you're shouting?

If not, why not?

None of us allowed this happen to you, you did.

Had you verified the plans yourself, you could have prevented this.

Had you come here earlier, you may have gotten the advice that," just because you pay your money, you are not absolved from the responcibility of protecting yourself and your family."

Find an attny.

Illegitimas non-carborundum

[vdotmatrix]

quote:Originally posted by Snoonyb

Is it because you are using either your pastors or your attny's keyboard, you're shouting?

If not, why not?

None of us allowed this happen to you, you did.

Had you verified the plans yourself, you could have prevented this.

Had you come here earlier, you may have gotten the advice that," just because you pay your money, you are not absolved from the responcibility of protecting yourself and your family."

Find an attny.

Illegitimas non-carborundum

i am not shouting but the pastor can go to hell.

LOL

we have attornys: brother, father, 2 uncles.

we weren't worried.

i come here often. i love this forum.

the matter has been nearly resolved 6 months ago and this is actually an old post by the date and i am rebutting from memory.

you hire someone to do a job.it gets done.

if not, you can fill in the blanks in any way you desired, if you want.

i am not hardly thinking about this anymore, until i answered a post a few days ago.

we were compensated.

the contractor was fined, cited and had to make restitution and we simply hired other trades to finish the work and fix the snafus....

we prevailed because of what i have been saying through out this thread about crappy work, workers and being asleep at the wheel.

.... and yes, buyer beware.

mus canis parvis
quid pro ad naseum
we kicked their asseum
lafus out laudium

so i think that's all i have for now....ok


cheers

It's sometimes better to be lucky than smart.