Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

[Stayouttadabunker]

Okay...as promised, pics of pump and Lowboy heater elements.
The first three photos are:

1] top of pump
2] bottom of pump
3] the pumps' labeling

[Stayouttadabunker]

Now, here are pictures of the Lowboy elements - their wiring hook up and their temperature adjustment dial settings of 120 degrees each.
They've run at 110 degrees for the past 7-8 years.

I've put captions on the bottom of the photos to show which is what...>>>

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Okay...as promised, pics of pump and Lowboy heater elements.
The first three photos are:

1] top of pump
2] bottom of pump
3] the pumps' labeling

When you look at your pump, there is a slot to put a large screw driver in. those are valves built into the pump flange if the slots are going with the pipe then they are open like the are now. If you turn both of them 90 degrees they would be closed so you can change the pump. On the back side of the blue pump, is the arrow pointing up?. Paul

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Thanks Paul,
I think I answered all the other questions in post #11 but I may have
missed this one from you post earlier in which I've quoted you from above?
If I did, I apologize as I am trying my best to give you guys as best detailed answers as I can.
Can you guys see my photos zoomed in?
I took the photos with a fairly high resolution camera.

Anyways, I'm not sure if it is indeed bleeding any air out of the air eliminator unit on top of the air canister.
I had removed the cap that was on the tube ( and left it off ) but I don't think there's any air valve in it?
I did put my finger on top of the outlet tube ( I think I mentioned that earlier) but I do not really feel anything coming out of it as the circulation pump is running.
Is there a way to check this particular unit for proper functioning?

This system has been running since 1986 but the Lowboy was replaced about 7 -8 years ago as I said in my 1st post.
I certainly do understand that it takes time to get the heat out to the slab ( at about 25-30 feet away from the Lowboy ) and get any warmer temp back on the return line to the heater tank, but the pipe in the immediate area just above the "HOT" outlet of the tank and around the pump, should be a lot warmer to the touch than it is no?
I do not believe the lukewarm water is reaching any further than about 10 -15 feet up the pipe. In fact, it feels cold at about 4 feet past the air eliminator unit.

I am still puzzled as to why the bottom element isn't turning on when the water inside the tank should be fairly cold.
with the wires off of the elements, what reading should I get ( in Ohms) to verify that they are ok?

I am running downstairs now to take some more photos of the Grundfos to see if that will help answer your question about the two valves.
BTW I didn't know the Grundfos pump HAD any valves...lol
I thought it just had a circulatory pump impeller inside?

Hayzee, answered that question about the running of the elements. To get hot water quicker the top one comes on first
Ok i am not going to get to hi tech. You have two elements, which might be 4500 watts each Your heater is probably wired with #10 wire which is only large enough to run one element at a time so that is why they put a transferring thermostat on the water heaters
If you wanted a lot more heat you would have to run another #10 30 amp
circuit and have a stat on both element. Paul

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Okay...as promised, pics of pump and Lowboy heater elements.
The first three photos are:

1] top of pump
2] bottom of pump
3] the pumps' labeling

One thing a don't remember for sure, In the center of your pump you have that round silver thing that looks like a plug. Can you put pliers on that and gently
see if it on screws. If it does there will be a o ring seal so when you take it out it will leak a little water. if that plug comes out then that gets you into the end of the shaft, so you can put a small screw driver in there and see if the pump is running. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

When you look at your pump, there is a slot to put a large screw driver in. those are valves built into the pump flange if the slots are going with the pipe then they are open like the are now. If you turn both of them 90 degrees they would be closed so you can change the pump. On the back side of the blue pump, is the arrow pointing up?. Paul

Yep...
Thanks paul,
Both brass screws are facing vertical and on the sides of the Grundfos are upwards pointing directional stampings as in the photo I've attached to this post...>>>

[Stayouttadabunker]

Also, the Upper and Lower heater elements may be different?
Attached are a couple photos of these units...>>>

[Stayouttadabunker]

One thing a don't remember for sure, In the center of your pump you have that round silver thing that looks like a plug. Can you put pliers on that and gently
see if it on screws. If it does there will be a o ring seal so when you take it out it will leak a little water. if that plug comes out then that gets you into the end of the shaft, so you can put a small screw driver in there and see if the pump is running. Paul

Why don't I just put the two brass valve screws at horizontal
and remove the pump?
I can test it here on the floor with a bucket half full of water and a couple of hoses attached to the pump?
I'd hate to mess with a machined pump seal that will only leak later?
What do you think?
I can always get new pump-to-water-pipe gaskets later....cheaper than buying a new pump?

I was just looking at the Grundfos website and it doesn't look like they make the Class F UP 15-42 F model pump like I have anymore. >>>

http://www.us.grundfos.com/Web/Download.nsf/Pages/1F70D43772F3F40F0825691A0068A1AA/$File/L-PH-SL-001.pdf

Here's a manual on the Grundfos 15 -42F pump >>>

http://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/Grundfos-UPS15,UP15-43,50-Installation-Manual.pdf

A secondary manual >>>

http://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/Grundfos-UP15-Series-Instellation-Manual.pdf

A product guide >>>

http://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/Grundfos-UP-Series.pdf

A Technical data sheet...I like technical stuff...lol >>>

http://www.pexuniverse.com/docs/pdf/59896155-grundfos-up15-42f.pdf

By the way, is there a way to turn off all these green highlights
and links whenever one makes a post?

[paul52446m]

Why don't I just put the two brass valve screws at horizontal
and remove the pump?
I can test it here on the floor with a bucket half full of water and a couple of hoses attached to the pump?
I'd hate to mess with a machined pump seal that will only leak later?
What do you think?
I can always get new pump-to-water-pipe gaskets later....cheaper than buying a new pump?

I was just looking at the Grundfos website and it doesn't look like they make the Class F UP 15-42 F model pump like I have anymore. >>>

http://www.us.grundfos.com/Web/Download.nsf/Pages/1F70D43772F3F40F0825691A0068A1AA/$File/L-PH-SL-001.pdf

By the way, is there a way to turn off all these green highlights
and links whenever one makes a post?

you can take the pump off if you want to. It wont hurt the pump to run it for a few seconds just to try it. When you install a pump , only tighten the bolts enough so the don't leak, Do not over tighten.
I am a heating and boiler man, so i don't know about those greeneys. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

you can take the pump off if you want to. It wont hurt the pump to run it for a few seconds just to try it. When you install a pump , only tighten the bolts enough so the don't leak, Do not over tighten.
I am a heating and boiler man, so i don't know about those greeneys. Paul

Thanks Paul...!!
I'll be back in a bit...gotta go take my pump apart! lol
so... how do we check if the air eliminator is working properly?

[paul52446m]

Radiant floor heating setup gurgles?

Thanks Paul...!!
I'll be back in a bit...gotta go take my pump apart! lol
so... how do we check if the air eliminator is working properly?

Nothing can go wrong with the air eliminator, its all cast iron, Just make sure the arrow on it is pointing with the flow. Now the bleeder on top can leak or get plugged up so its not a bad idea to replace it. paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

1st I turned the brass screws horizontal
and removed the pump bolts.
I rigged up the circ. pump to a 5 gallon bucket with
a rubber hose going down into about
8 inches of Glycol red anti-freeze.

I removed the power to the heating elements
at the water heater panel box and turned on
the outdoor lockout thermostat to power up the pump.

The pump is weak I think?
I even primed it with a cup full of Glycol too!
I made a short video clip of it in ...uh...action...LOL
All it does is make foam out of Glycol...HELP!!! >>>

Grundfos 15-pump jury rigged for testing purposes.MOV - YouTube

[paul52446m]

1st I turned the brass screws horizontal
and removed the pump bolts.
I rigged up the circ. pump to a 5 gallon bucket with
a rubber hose going down into about
8 inches of Glycol red anti-freeze.

I removed the power to the heating elements
at the water heater panel box and turned on
the outdoor lockout thermostat to power up the pump.

The pump is weak I think?
I even primed it with a cup full of Glycol too!
I made a short video clip of it in ...uh...action...LOL
All it does is make foam out of Glycol...HELP!!! >>>

Grundfos 15-pump jury rigged for testing purposes.MOV - YouTube

This pump is called a circulating pump. This means when it is in the system with water on each side of it and equal pressure on both sides of it is is made to circulate about 7 to 8 gal. a min. to no more than a 7' head pressure.
It is not like a well water pump that can pull water out of the ground and push it with hi pressure. This little pump can be used in a house where boiler is in the basement and your have one story above it. If i have a two story house with the boiler in a basement, then i have to go to a higher pumping volume. We have to keep in mind that the fluid you are trying to pump is heaver than water. For no more than you are pumping i would think this pump would do the job. Do you know about how much fluid you have in your system?.
We will probably have to go step by step because you are jumping around so fast that i cant tell what works and what don't work. I don't know if you feed valve works , or if your tank is water logged. Paul

[Stayouttadabunker]

We have to keep in mind that the fluid you are trying to pump is heaver than water.

I get it...it's more of an centrifugal pump rather than like a sump pump -
which is capable of moving water upwards of 15 ft.

still, it seems fairly weak do you think?
It certainly didn't push the heated water very far away
down the line from the water tank.

"if your tank is water-logged"?
I don't understand that question.
Would you mean the "air canister"?
If so, what's the best way to check that component?

"I don't know if you feed valve works"
If I would have to guess, I'd say yes because of how "pink" the Glycol mixture has now become since I was flushing so much out with my garden
hose on the "COLD" return pipe near the top of the water heater.
I think I've thrown out about 25 gallons or more of old anti-freeze mixture since I've started working on this a few days ago.
I've used the cold freshwater feed valve to replenish the system all along.

I do not know what the volume of the Glycol mixture in the lines.
All I can say is that all the components I have on hand here have already been in service
and have been in exceptional working order for the past 7-8 years.

I believe it's more of a matter of determining what components of this system
have lost their integrity and need replacement.
Would you agree?

Your question about the "feed valve" got me thinking
and I wanted to see the Glycol/water ratio so I grabbed an
old hydrometer out of my garage.
I added a couple of pictures of a Hydrometer containing plain water
and the same hydrometer containing some of the Glycol mixture
that's been in there for the past 7-8 years - it looks like I will be needing to
replenish it with a more higher ratio of Glycol to get it up to par?
Should be easy to fill up the water heater with the pump removed?
Just turn the brass screw vertical, stick a funnel in there
and pour in some pure anti-freeze right?

Click on any photo to make larger if needed...>>>

[HayZee518]

I'll try to make it out today, Saturday. I'll call beforehand.
Looking at your photo-s and diagrams, certain questions pop up. First is - you should have a matched set of heater elements. Pix #1 shows a 4500 watt element, #2 shows a 6600 watt element. The difference here is that the 4500 watt element draws 18.75 amps, the 6600 watt element draws about 27 amps. 4500 divided by 240 gives 18.75, 6600 divided by 240 gives 27.5 amps. OK, the way you got it connected, what is the master element that turns on the whole setup? slab stat? circulator stat? I question this because each element has its own thermostat too! Should be power from tha panel to a relay hot. Load side of the relay to the heater. upper element turns on first. when it is satisfied it swaps to the lower thermostat and its element. when the lower element is satisfied it opens and no heat is produced. when the water/glycol mix circulates, the return water is cooler than the outgoing so the bottom element turns on, if the temperature can't be met, the upper one turns on etc. all the time the recirculator is running. you shouldn't need to keep the fill valve open because you are not consuming water for use. you have a closed system. once the air is out you don't add water for any reason unless your slab manifold has a leak.
what size breaker is feeding the heater and circulator. is the circulator using one side of the 240 feed to obtain 120 volts for its operation?