422 flashing lights after shutdown

[dantm]

msearcher and others...

I seem to have the same problem with a M22 unit, it gets to the set temperature and then shuts down with flashing burner lights. From my understanding the flashing lights could be out of fuel or thermal shutdown, but neither of them seem reasonable?

For one the unit can go for either 2-3 hrs to heat up the room from 40 to 70 deg and then shuts down; during this time the pump and fuel system is operating normally. When it reaches temp it shuts down as mentioned. Or if the room is at 68 deg it will take another 10 mins to get it to 70 deg and it will shut down the same, so I can't see how the pump would be starved of fuel?

What puzzles me is how the carburetor could cause this problem (@msearcher you had mentioned this fixed it for you).

Thank you all!

[FordMan59]

Tom, thanks.

re: missing screw on igniter cover. Actually, no, that's just an odd black dot on the cover. All the screws are present. Appreciate your assessment of the localized yellow. Also FordMan agrees I can just ignore this for the moment.

My hunch is that this localized yellow may be a side effect of the K-100 additive binding to the small amount of condensation water in the outside tank, and resulting in a flame anomaly near the fuel inlet.

Regards, William

I think you have the right plan. Just keep an eye on it. If the yellow worsens or you start having problems with soot then investigate it and try to find and fix the problem. Some of my threads have McMaster-Carr part numbers that I've used for burn mats and gasket material at a fraction of the cost of Monitor service parts if you need anything. In 2012 I bought a roll of gasket material 1/8" X 16" X 10' for around $40. I've used on it to replace gaskets and sold pieces off my roll to others and still have about 6-7' on the roll that will undoubtedly last me the rest of my life. The material I bought for making burn mats at the time was about $10 for a piece 12" X 40" if I recall the size correctly. Prices have probably increased some over the past 8 years but, I'm sure it's still a significant savings. I too have an extra burn chamber built with everything in it ready to go in at a moments notice. Over the past several years I've bought lots of used parts at cheap prices and put them up in case something goes wrong with mine I can repair it and not have to wait on parts to come from out of state. I've bought everything from a fuel line, combustion fan/housing, circulation fan, fuel pump, heat chamber, burn pot, igniter, flame rod, time/temperature controller, motherboard, etc. and don't think I have more than about $200 in all of it. I thought this was pretty cheap insurance and if I never need them I'm sure the prices will just go up. I bought my heater when I lived in NC and brought to our new home in KY when we moved in 2010. There are no Monitor dealers in the state so if I need something I don't have I'll have to order it out of NC. Hickory Home and Garden in Hickory, NC has the best prices of anywhere I've been able to find for original Monitor brand service parts.

[wjcroft]

Tom, thanks.

re: missing screw on igniter cover. Actually, no, that's just an odd black dot on the cover. All the screws are present. Appreciate your assessment of the localized yellow. Also FordMan agrees I can just ignore this for the moment.

My hunch is that this localized yellow may be a side effect of the K-100 additive binding to the small amount of condensation water in the outside tank, and resulting in a flame anomaly near the fuel inlet.

Regards, William

[hawkins111]

I don't see much of a problem with your flame. I do see a screw missing from the igniter cover. That will allow too much air, which can cause a high flame. You need to be sure the proper Air Dampers are installed. If they are not correct you can get a high flame.

If the stove gives you a problem you will have to remove the whole burner pot to investigate the problem. That will mean you will need a number of gaskets, a burner mat, maybe a ring and some glue to go back together. It's not a tough job to complete, however you will need gaskets or the material to make them and a mat and glue. If you need a burner ring you can get them at several places.

I keep a complete combustion chamber ready to go in case of a problem. It takes about 20 minutes to r/r the chamber. You can get parts from EBAY or Hickory Home and Gardens. There used to be a Monitor dealer in Shasta that had lots of stuff. They my be gone now.

[FordMan59]

I'll have to watch my heater sometime when it's running on something besides low but, if I recall correctly that's the general area where I see yellow flame in mine. That's also right around the fuel inlet area so maybe the fuel is pooling slightly in that area? It seems to be very similar to what mine does and has been doing at least for a couple years, probably longer and I just hadn't noticed it. No more than you'd have to use your heater I wouldn't think that you'd be needing a burn chamber overhaul if you just did one in 2017. My heater was 16 years old when it got it's first rebuild in 2012. I used a different burn mat material that I'd got from Mc Master-Carrr when I rebuilt mine and replaced the mat again about 6 years later when I removed the burn chamber trying to figure out the reason for another problem I was having. I don't think the mat would have had to be replaced at that time but since I had the chamber out I figured I might as well clean the pot and put in a new mat.

[wjcroft]

FordMan, hey thanks for that mention that you also use a water dispersion additive. That's reassuring that others are doing this. I only use the minimal amount recommended. I assume you viewed my Youtube video, showing the localized yellow,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujxJWYVU2wM

Which only shows the yellow localized in a small area near the sensor rod or fuel inlet, no soot. The yellow disappears when the Burner Status indicator is on low. The video I think was recorded when burner status was on 3/4. But even on low burner, close inspection through the window appears to show a very slight distortion (bump) in the ring in that same area, though no yellow. Possibly the yellow causes this, or vice versa. Maybe I should upload a video of the ring on low burner status.

That's an interesting conjecture, that if the additive had 'grabbed' some of the water, that the flame quality would be changed when that contaminant was consumed. Makes sense. At the same time, the K-100 site and videos, seem to imply that the additive causes a complete mixing of the small amount of water with the fuel. So the result should just be mostly fuel plus a bit of additive and tiny amount of water. So fuel combustion should be mostly normal. Guess it depends on how bad the condensation situation is in the tank.

Would still be interested if Tom hawkins111 has any opinions about additives or the video. It does seem odd that if the water+additive was the cause of the localized yellow, that the effect would not be localized at all, but instead visible in all areas around the circumference of the ring. Puzzling.

Regards, William Croft, Mount Shasta, CA

[FordMan59]

Do you think the problem could be traces of water in the fuel getting an incomplete or poor burn causing the yellow flame? I too use a diesel fuel treatment in my Monitor. I run on capsule tanks so I buy my fuel in 5 gallon cans. I always add about 2 oz. of diesel treatment to the can prior to filling it since a 1/2 gallon is supposed to treat 200 gallons. I figured this would help prevent moisture from forming since the fuel is stored outside and maybe help keep the carburetor/fuel lines cleaner. A couple years ago Mighty Dollar had diesel treatment in 1/2 gallon containers for $1. each, so, while I could get it at such a great price I bought 10 of them. I only use about 125-150 gallons per heating season so it will probably last the rest of my life. I think I just started on my 2nd half gallon at the end of last heating season and it's still well over half full.

[wjcroft]

Tom and FordMan, sorry for my issues with the Google Drive link, Drive was not cooperating. I just re-loaded the video using a Youtube upload. Here is that link below, just click and it should play. What is shown is the 422 running on I recall '3/4' on the Burner Status LEDs. This yellow area of the ring only seems to show up the higher burner output ranges (1/2, 3/4, and high). On lowest, where the 422 is at much of the time, there is no yellow visible. On the video I tried to show that the flame quality in the rest of the ring (95%) is fine, good blue tiny flames, and ring is red from the heat. Only in this small portion of the ring near the flame sensor is the flame acting up. I don't see evidence of soot yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujxJWYVU2wM

Tom, if you view this, does it look more like a mat issue or ring issue? All components were OEM brand shiny new when I did the refurb in October 2017: pot (with pre installed mat), ring, gaskets, etc. Looking more closely today, when the flame was on low, it does seem like there is a bit of distortion or non smoothness in the red glow of the ring, at the location where the yellow appears when running on high.

As I mentioned Mount Shasta winters are very mild, most of the time only near or above freezing. Only a small number of days in the 20's. So I would have expected all the new components from 2017 would last more years than this. A couple things to note: I have been shutting it off over night (just heating my bedroom with an electric radiator). So when turned on in the morning, it does run on high for some time; getting the temp up from around 60F to 70F. Perhaps these periods of 'high' times have stressed the ring.... If I left it running on say 65F overnight, that would probably be less time in high, when I go to 70F. And less thermal shock.

(I guess you've ruled out the flame sensor rod position as having anything to do with this yellow. But let me know if this video changes your opinion.)

One other item that I remembered: my outside 275 gallon split tank (I only use half), had water condensation issues when I got here in 2017. Since then I've been adding a small amount of K-100 to the kerosene, to mop up / absorb any water that might get into the tank. As far as I assume (and read reviews), the K-100 is a formula that can absorb water, but does not change the fuel characteristics. But let me know if you've heard any bad things about it. Don't see how this could damage the ring.

https://k-100.com/diesel/

Regards, William Croft, Mount Shasta

[hawkins111]

You can not see the condition of the flame ring on a 422 through the window. The viewing hole is too small. A leaping yellow flame is a sign of a bad burner ring or burner mat. I have only tried twice to weld the burner ring, with no luck either time. The metal gets so corroded by the heat cool cycle it gets brittle and hard to weld. When you do open it up take Fordmans advise and cut the last bit off the flame sensor. This gets the rod up out of the space between the ring and burner pot. It should end right above the edge of the ring. At some point in the near future the stove will start cutting out due to either soot or contact of the flame sensor. At that point you will have to open the stove one way or the other. Mount Shasta is a cool spot. I've been through there many times.

[FordMan59]

I still can't get the video to load this morning but, as long as there's not much yellow in the flame and the sight glass isn't sooting up I think you'll be fine. My 422 has been in service almost 23 years and has only had one flame ring and two burn mat replacements in that time. I few years ago when I replaced the burn mat I took the flame ring that I'd installed in 2012 to a welding shop and had them weld all around the circumference of the dome to hopefully prevent it from coming apart or warping as easily. If I ever have to take it apart for anything else I'll check to see how it's holding up. If the weld is breaking I'll have it re-welded. Those flame rings are getting so expensive we need to do whatever we can to make them last longer. I occasionally get a yellow flash but, it doesn't last but a second and usually when I get that flash is when the heater changes operation speeds. I wonder if the burn mat is lifting if that would cause a yellow flame or not.

[wjcroft]

FordMan, hey thanks for the comment. The gasket for the flame rod sensor was new in October 2017 when I did the refurb. Screws are tight.

That's odd about the video link. [Just replaced with a Youtube link below]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujxJWYVU2wM

Regards, William

[FordMan59]

I doubt the flame rod has anything to do with the yellow flame. The reason I cut the flame rod shorter was to help prevent it from shorting out on the flame ring so easily. I couldn't get your file to open so I didn't get to see the flame, but unless there's a lot of yellow and pretty well constant I wouldn't worry about it. Have you checked that the gasket around the flame rod is good and that it's not getting air there that it shouldn't be getting? I bought a 422 for my son several years ago. It came out of CA and looked and run like new even though it was probably between 15-20 years old at the time. Hawkins can probably help you determine the problem better than I can since he used run a heater business.

[wjcroft]

re: question about yellow flames in the area of my flame sensor rod, related to above discussion.

I agree with Fordman on cutting the flame sensor off at the bottom bend. We have done this as a standard procedure for fifteen years now. If you look at a Toyo flame sensor, it does not hang down past the edge of the burner ring. If you do cut it, be sure to cut it right at the bend. The screws that hold the flame sensor bracket should be tightened the same, as not to force the rod in or out.

Tom Hawkins or FordMan, hi. My Monitor 422 is working fine, and had a refurbish with new pot and ring in October 2017 with new parts, gaskets, etc. I'm in Mount Shasta, CA, and winters are really mild here, so the 422 is very low usage. It is probably around 20 years old, but low 'mileage'. ;-)

But I do see some unusual "yellow flame" activity through the window, and it seems to be coming from the area of the flame sensor rod, near as I can tell from the window. I've uploaded a short video at this link, you can see it with link below. As you can see, the overall flame quality is great, as is the flame ring. Just the yellow near the sensor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujxJWYVU2wM

Do you think this is caused by the lower bend in the flame sensor rod, and that I should cut it off as you mention in the above quote? Could any damage result from leaving it like this? The higher amounts of yellow from this area only show up when the heater is running at medium or high, not on low.

Regards, William Croft, Mount Shasta, CA

[msearcher]

Yes, replaced the carburetor

[hawkins111]

Msearcher, Did you get your M422 going again?
Tom