Heat value outputs: New(er) M2400 vs. Old(er) M441!

[kalicocat]

...being new to the forum, i will apologize in advance for requesting duplicate info/direction on this topic if it has indeed previously been posted...i have actually read (and not once seen this topic?) many, but not all threads/posts (on the monitors) as of yet!

anywho, i have a very specific curiosity 'bout something...why, since the 40, 41, 441, and 'newer' 2400 models all use basically the same 'hard' parts for operation, (sans the control board for the 2400) are the 441 & 2400 (most recent models) not comparable in output specs?...it would seem reasonable if they might be off by a couple hundred to maybe a thousand btu units, but not by multiple thousands?...these are basically one and the same (hardparts wise!), so they should perform relatively the same in my opinion???...obviously, the control system may be a little different, with different programming, fuel trims, etc; but that still should not affect the numbers in the way that i am seeing? more fuel might mean higher consumption numbers and obvious higher output numbers, but that is not really the issue...there are values for the two units that are VERY similar in heat rating btu AND consumption values, BUT the heat output btus are not the same @ all, in fact, very different and several thousand btus apart from one another?

...the only 'logical' explanation for this scenario i could determine was possibly that Monitor basically 'overrated' these (early generation) units output values from the getgo & rolled w/ those numbers for all those years; maybe until the testing & certifications became better, more precise, or more regulated/enforced by EPA or whomever, like nowadays?

the reason i think this, is because basically: i will buy the fact that when i see a 40k rated heater unit, i ass-u-me that it is pushing 40k, just like its rated to do...(i also realize the AFUE taking in the 'non-condensing' water situation lowering the rating a little bit, but honestly this 'factor' does not really enter my mind, because it basically affects ANY type of 'combustible type' heater out there, anyway! )

...basically apples to apples, a 40k unit, is a 40k unit, is a 40k unit to me when i am searching for the right machine to do the job!...what i DONT expect to find is literally two identical 40k models pushing very different outputs from virtually the same identical inputs?...

i realize i'm 'long-winded' & have probably now managed to confuse more people than actually 'enlightened' to this curious situation, so if i made it complex...here are the ratings so u can see 4 yourself my numbers in question!

M441
Heat Rating High: 43,000 BTU/hour
H.Medium: 33,900 BTU/hour
LMedium: 21,000 BTU/hour
Low: 16,200 BTU/hour

Heater Output High: 40,000 BTU/hour
H.Medium: 31,500 BTU/hour
L Medium: 19,500 BTU/hour
Low: 15,000 BTU/hour


M2400
Heat Rating High : 43,000 BTU/hour
H.Medium : 32,000 BTU/hour
L.Medium : 24,600 BTU/hour
Low: 16,200 BTU/hour

Heater Output High : 37,200 BTU/hour
H.Medium : 26,900 BTU/hour
L.Medium : 20,700 BTU/hour
Low : 13,600 BTU/hour


...i also realize that this stuff doesnt really mean a whole lot in the 'big picture', but thought that maybe someone had some 'inside' knowledge, or maybe a better insight as to why the values are so far apart...as usually newer is 'better' (in theory, anyway!) and i dont feel the new specs are much better than the old; in fact, they're actually worse & unexplained...in my opinion, it should not be so & has no logical reasoning behind it... (but i am NOT an engineer, by any means!)

Thanx for any insight!

[hawkins111]

Monitor numbers

Part of the difference is Monitor uses different numbers to come up with the Heater Output. The M441 uses a flat 93 percent Heater Efficiency to come up with Heater Output. The M2400 uses a number between the Net Efficiency of 88 % and the AFUE of 84%. AFUE, annual fuel utilization efficiency. The text in a Monitor manual was not changed from the first printing to the last. It appears to be just a numbers game that may have been forced on them by some government rating agency. If you have ever been around both heaters, they appear to put out about the same amount heat. Sorry for the round about answer but “that’s the world of Monitor”.

Tom

[kalicocat]

agreed...still makes no sense!

thanx Tom for some input!

...yeah, i kinda figured it was more of a 'copy & paste' situation in the manuals for most of the consecutive models...the values i included for the 2400 (newest) model ARE in fact new & different from any manual info printed for any of the other 40k units, but as you can see, ESPECIALLY in the high/medium high area, there is 5000+ rating to output variance/loss!!! ...to me, that's a BIG difference when all previous ratings for ALL 40k units were only around 2-3000 MAX output losses as compared to input ratings...someone either must have 'cracked down' on the acceptable methods of testing and/or reporting, or Monitor just 'overrated' these units for many, MANY years running!...i cannot see how, 'all-of-sudden' the same exact units (in build configuration, 'hard-parts' wise) can literally now be over TWICE more inefficient than the previous units before it (20 yrs+going!)!...so basically, burning on high (which is often!), the new unit is now 'losing' a total of one-seventh or 14% of its rated output, instead of losing ONLY 7% total of its rated output on high-burn (as in the M441 for example)!!!...that is an ASTRONOMICAL difference in efficiency loss!...if the values are really 'true' it would certainly be a real weighing factor in deciding which unit to buy!

thanx again, Tom!!!


* p.s...just thought of something Tom; wondering if u have any clue as to getting the fanblade off the combustionblower to check the bearings out...got it down to just the 'last' casing w/ the inner blade attached by allenkey (removed)? it slips on the spindle by hand 'to a point' but cannot pull it off, its soft aluminum, so dont want to pry & distort/unbalance it???...i never happened to see an airdraft-damper whikle taking all this stuff apart, is it in there w/ the motor somewhere?...and if i need the bearings (getting loud, but no observable 'play' on the shaft that i can detect...yet) how much & where?...gotta get ready for the big chill comin' on!

[hawkins111]

blower disassembly

Be very careful of the fan blade, it is not a part you can order. If your stove is a M441 be sure the Allen screw is all the way out. The set screw may have marred the shaft. A little WD40 and hold on to the center of the fan may pull it off. The bearing can be had from any bearing store. The numbers are on the side. The damper should be on the bottom left of the blower if your unit is a M441. To get the bearings off I use a 3” Snap On bearing puller. You can get innovative with a bracket and vise if you need to. Clean the shaft with MEK or Lacquer thinner to remove any Loctite. Lube with light oil and try to remove the bearing.

A 2400 has no damper. I have never had to put bearings in a M2400, so I am not sure how to disassemble that motor. The 2400 has an RPM sensor on the bottom, so care is in order with that.

Keep us posted.

Tom

[HayZee518]

the fan nut is LEFT HANDED.

[kalicocat]

Tom & HayZee!

i must say u guys truly are 'Da Bomb'!!!

...not only are u both xtremely prompt w/ good insight, u both hit the nail right on the head! i found out 2day that the shaft WAS indeed marred on the edge & was the problem; actually had to use a hardened drift/punch, carefully guide it thru that lil' allenkey hole & flatten the marred up stuff (without creating more damage!), all while desperately trying to hold 1)motor assembly 2)fan housing 3)fan blade assembly ALL @ the same time, while all was independently turning opposite directions (including the shaft which is entirely independent of ALL those things!) AND hit that exact spot on the shaft WITHOUT bending/damaging the fanblades!!!...Whew, easier said than done! ...once off, finally realized that...ahem...that problem was caused by 'some' amateur trying to remove a left-hand thread to the left, HayZee!...gee, some people's children anyway! also, no damper (M2400) & down to the motor housing (with rpm sensor!), which i found is riveted together...should i drill 'em out or u guys think i will never get it back 2gether again?...the shaft has zero play, but can hear the movement when i 'spin it up by hand' & when all housings assembled & intact, acts as an 'echo chamber' intensifying the rough sound (i dont care for it) but has not reached F-4 Phantom sound decibel levels as of yet (and boy, are those LOUD!)

all the info is greatly appreciated from both! should i stick this into a 'better' area, now that i have totally jumped topic & deviated into a new realm (totally by accident!)!?!...i noticed there is not much M2400 info / 'how-to's', maybe start some new threads on those for the new generation units?

-deano

[kalicocat]

p.s. anyone got a M40, M41, M441 burn cloth/mat they will sell me cheap(er)!?!...mines toast, been getting by w/ a piece of fiberglass woven mat on the 'short' side, which is now missing due to toastiness & cleaning w/ the shopvac!...not a good answer, but hey, whaddahyagonnado!?!

[HayZee518]

I gave someone a stock number from mc master-carr for the burner mat material. It is 8851K33. Take a look at the mcmaster site. www dot mcmaster dot com.
For what its worth I have a 2400 in my house which hasn't messed up yet. I did find that those screws that hold the viewing window on the pot are common cheap steel screws that expand at a different rate then the pot. I can turn one of them with a screwdriver, but the others won't budge. I'll end up using my dremel and cut a flat bladed screwdriver slot in them to take it apart. Funny thing, I called the local shop and the lady said, "why would you want to take off the window? you know there's a gasket there!" I said yeah I know. She said" nobody takes the window off to clean it. then why on the great earth do they put screws on the frame of it if they didn't mean for someone to take it off?"

[dfitz3390]

p.s. anyone got a M40, M41, M441 burn cloth/mat they will sell me cheap(er)!?!...mines toast, been getting by w/ a piece of fiberglass woven mat on the 'short' side, which is now missing due to toastiness & cleaning w/ the shopvac!...not a good answer, but hey, whaddahyagonnado!?!

what do you mean by cheap (er) ?

[kalicocat]

woe is me! (& prolly u2 if u ever have 2 do this!)

HayZee!

...kinda like the military, if it made sense, you must have done something incorrectly; now you need to go back & do it over again!
if the window weren't meant to be cleaned/removed (hence the term 'inspection window'!!!) then it would be painted black for your amusement, right HayZee!?!

...thanx 4 the tip on the burnermat, i will give the site a looksee when i have a chance!...well, i got impatient w/ it last nite (kept staring at it like an orange that needed peeling!) & drilled those rivets out...wish i wouldn't have now, as the motor was running 'normal', just obnoxiously loud & figured it was only a matter of time...well...hell...the casing is XTREMELY hard 2 pry apart; unfortunately, the casing side w/ the wiring harness is the side that wanted to come free..it also has a magnet glued to the end of the rod for the RPM sensor...the retaining clip was simple to pry off, but the magnet is ceramic, and i dont want to risk shattering it after it's taking all that heat & time on there...SUX! ...i was able to finally get the housing halves apart like this, but was afraid i would mess up the main wiring harness as well because it is all fished & stuffed in there on that end, wished it would have come out the 'other way'!

...so now i have the motor wiring harness clamshell housing end w/ the rotor/spindle still attached by the ceramic magnet glued to the end, all in my hand; there is one bearing attached/stuck to the spindle that i can see/touch (prolly pull), so i suppose since its accessible i should change @ least the one i can, especially since its the bearing that would have taken the most heat & abuse over the years (it also seems to be the 'noisier one' when i spin it!) i would really love to do both since its now apart, but dont want to risk losing that magnet! its kinda like a wheel speed sensor for antilocks on ur vehicle, but an actual ceramic magnet wheel...any suggestions on how u guys might proceed if u were me? also, how would u judge where to 'place' the bearing on the spindle to match where it is now? guess i will just stuff it into the housing (other half) & hope like heck i can actually get the halves to go back together!!!...should've just left well enough alone...guess someone has to be the guinea pig!
i would post pix (interesting!) but don't have enough posts i believe, yet?

...curiosity killed the kat...
...don't fix what ain't yet broke...
...some folks have just enough knowledge to be dangerous...

all that jazz are some of the thoughts runnin' through my mind, now after the fact!...

p.s. @ dfitz3390, i meant i need a burner-mat, and am hoping that it would be less xpensive than buying 'full retail markup' like a dealer price ($27-35!), albeit the fact that it will more than likely still end up being more xpensive than i want to pay for it, or worth in literal terms of materials itself!...but it is what it is, and if someone had one to sell @ a decent price, i would prolly buy it; actually two if a good deal!

[kalicocat]

Screws loose?

P.S.!!!

@ HayZee!...we had those cheap steel screws literally disintegrate from the heat/moisture of natural gas fired appiances/heaters ALWAYS breaking when trying to remove, and in some situations creating REALLY difficult situations!
spray some PB Blaster (wht can red writing) or FreeAll (silver can blue writing) which are both THE most excellent 'busters' found, usually @ Napa & used for automotive exhaust work!...wait like 1/2 hr (yes, please be patient & wait!) and more times than not, when u go back & slowly tighten slightly, then loosen & repeat (much like when u get ur Bronco stuck in the mud!) the screw will break loose & u can get it out MUCH easier!...i always went to West Marine (not sure if they have West Marine o'er here since we are in the East!?) & got all marine grade stainless steel screws to replace critical ones and my own as well!

[dfitz3390]

well if you are paying that much i can see why, as my price sheet says that retail is $18.18 2011-12 price down from 31.46 2010-11 price sheet. could be a typo i guess i suggest using the factory mat and glue as i've seen lot less problems with the oem stuff. just my opinion for whatever its worth

[kalicocat]

...much better!

well if you are paying that much i can see why, as my price sheet says that retail is $18.18

...yeah, your pricing seems much more reasonable AND realistic 4 sure!...where/who do u get ur Monitor repair parts from, maybe i will do just that & thanx 4 the tip!